European-Canadians considering moving to Spain - need some info

Fast succint answer and the best advice I can offer. Stay where you are!

No where is perfect. Unemployment is rampant in Spain (and in other European countries).
Or move elsewhere in Canada. I know for a fact there is not "bad"weather all the time in Canada, and I also know there is excellent food to be had, great sea-food, fresh produce (think West Coast). The health care system is good.

Qualified Spanish people are emigrating in droves because there is no work for them at home.

Good luck

Dear Campana,

Thank you for your response. We were thinking we won't get any.

Question: are you Canadian-born? Or have you been living in Canada? If so, for how long?

Regarding your reply: indeed, it's a tough decision to abandon a teacher's and a federal pension, but at the same time, we need to live our lives, and we kinda feel it's slipping by while being here...sort of every day is like the other, no excitement, no randomness - and really not much to look forward to. Don't get me wrong, we love Canada, it's a great place for very many people, but we'd like to be back in Europe...living the simple(simpler) life, enjoying a good wine, good chocolate, less doublespeak, etc.

Regarding weather: we lived in Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver, and have visited pretty much the whole country. Overall the weather is pretty bad or at least depressing no matter where you are. The food is typically too salty (even the government knows that, but fails to do anything about it), alcohol is extremely expensive (compared to Europe) - and while we're only social drinkers, we'd like to spend more liberally on a good beverage than buy cheapo electronics.

During our over one decade of having been in Canada, we spent overall more than one year in holidays in Europe...and we enjoyed it every time. Not saying that we weren't somewhat happy to return to Canada (because that's our home too) but we feel more European than North-American in spirit.

Unemployment...that's an issue indeed, but luckily we have a bit of passive income, and also pretty inexpensive hobbies (i.e. reading, socializing, etc.) - and are not too picky, especially not craving expensive stuff. Also, unemployment figures are always relative, as are statistics. Perhaps the % is lower in Canada, but what job quality are we talking about? Part-time, minimum-wage jobs? Frankly, it's very hard to imagine how most people live on such incomes. Obviously, many young Europeans live with their parents, but there's a big difference: their homes are not wood shacks, and they usually inherit them from their parents, who rather do something meaningful with their accumulated wealth than spend it mindlessly on cruises when they're too old to understand what's around them, anyway.

The fact that qualified Spanish people emigrate isn't surprising...because they have options. As European citizens, they at least have the right to work in many other countries. Canadians don't emigrate because a) it's not really in their spirit (most aren't very flexible, or multilingual, to be honest) and b) it ain't easy for the average Canadian to find work abroad...as a work permit is required, which is hard to get if you're not somehow special compared with the average Joe looking for a job in your dream country.

Please let's continue the conversation.

Regards,
Los Mascos

Ey Los Mascos, que tal?

I'm a Canadian who moved to Barcelona in the 2000s and I too worked in IT back in Canada. Unfortunately for me I did not have any real second languages (mon francais ete tres mal) nor did I have permission to live and work in the EU by virtue of citizenship.

Like you, I was sick of bad food, winters, American cultural dominance, lack of social variety, absence of ambient art/architecture, and the provincial mindset. I LOVED Spain. :D

I would say you'll probably go out and eat out more than you did back home... count on it. That said, it's cheap to do so. If you buy a residence in the city center (you won't want to own a car, just rent when you need one), you can live very cheaply. I'd bet 1000? per month, excepting travel, but travel is cheap too.

For work, I'd expect to get into freelancing and online work for you for Canadian or US companies, and for your partner expect to take a TEFL course and pick up some English teaching (not great money, but enough - go read our articles about it). You'll be able to put together 2000? per month at a minimum within a year I would estimate. This is decent money for Barcelona, given the cost of living. You'll hear about the mileuristas who are the vast majority of workers in Spain who make about 1000? per month. I believe the average annual salary is approximately 21,500? per month across the country.

Anything I've missed? Get packing. :)

Ah yes, health care. Get private health care for now. You might be eligible for public health care, and you should pursue that option, but private health insurance is quite reasonable (about 60-120? per month). Health care on the whole is the 2nd most effective (cost vs results) in the world.

Oh, and about learning Spanish... just go take some courses and try hard. Sounds like you have the right attitude and experience with other languages. You'll be fine.

The Expatriator - hola amigo y muchas gracias!

You really made my evening my friend! If at least 30% of Canadians were thinking like you, it would be a different society. If at least 20% of Americans were also thinking like you, it would be a different continent. But, sadly, no chance. In fact, idiocracy is growing every day. We've stopped watching TV soon after getting here more than a decade ago, but no matter what you do, you're still exposed to the dumb, misleading, manipulative ads lurking everywhere: on the bus, in the printed press, on the local web, and - worse - even in the official communications of the different levels of government.

On a rational level, the saddest part is not the actual degradation of everything (which somehow makes sense given the unsustainable models employed by most of the first world), but rather the fact that the masses choose to ignore reality and - worse - to deny the facts, responding with a mindless cheerfulness and unjustified gratitude - which, in history, is usually one of the last steps before...well...a serious adjustment of some kind.

So, amigo, thanks again for the encouragement...I hope we can stay in touch for when (later this year) we'll make the move...actually we're very excited about it...and are quite certain that it'll contribute to our...antifragility...I'll let you search the term online :)

Buenas noches!

Glad it helped. Please do keep us up to date on your progress and start looking for IT work where you can telecommute and a good TEFL program for the Mrs.

Looking up antifragility now... :)

Will do, and thanks for all the good advice!

BTW, what's the catch with listings such as this one:

http://remax.es/27521001-70

According to Google Maps, the area (including Street View) seems OK.

What's the process to acquire real estate in Span? Any significant hurdles and/or costs that we should factor?

Also, how much is real estate tax? (We know that in some other European countries the tax for 'normal' i.e. non-luxury RE is very low, compared to Canada)

Thanks again!

I told this before in another thread, and i think it is pretty fitting to reiterate it here.

In online places like elance.com, there are ALL kinds of work available - for contract, short term, long term, hourly ; ranging from design/programming jobs to content creation, to technical manual writing to legal counsel to even manufacturing design.

I very much think, people who are living expat lives, or with an expat mindset, should be looking into these more. the main reason for this, is it liberates you from location.

unity100 - thank you! Indeed, careful risk management suggests not laying all eggs in one basket. I have considered freelancing, as well as running a small family business...

BTW, has somebody had a minute to check out the real estate link I have posted? Is that offer legit? It seems extremely inexpensive, even compared with Eastern-European markets...am I missing anything here?

Good weekend!

Well in the midst of all this jubilant optimism all I can say is "make haste slowly" Los Mascos.

I love Spain too, (lived here practically all my life and my husband is Spanish). However, I am not blind (being a realist) to the current difficult situation, and I would be very remiss if I were to advise anyone that it is all wine and roses. I love other European countries too. I am I think a true European and therefore can see it as it is. No less, no more.

I/we are fortunate to have a foot in both countries (my home country of Ireland, and Spain).

When I look in on this (or other) forums I am dismayed at this "teaching English" thing. The place is awash with soi-disant English teachers: the good, the bad and the indifferent. Unless you get private "grinds" the money is NOT good.

I have been approached on different occasions to teach English (perish the thought) privately to businessmen/lawyers. But it is not my thing.
I feel one must think things through before taking the leap of faith.

We also have very stupid advertising over here in the old world, T.V. is awash with mind-numbing soap-operas and reality shows. There are dumbed-down people everywhere, Los Mascos, unfortunately. Oh yes, there is bad food to be had everywhere too. The fast-food boys are everywhere in Spain, and doing rather well, believe it or not.

And then of course, there is that great truism "wherever you go there you are". Over the years I have dealt with many many people who made a move for the wrong reasons, and ended up either stuck or going back to wherever. So you have this largish unhappy band who go in for tiresome Spain-bashing any chance they get.

Spain is not for everyone, that is all I am saying.

My god-father lives in Canada and has done so for 50 years. A cousin of mine and his wife (and children) were in Canada for two or three years on a contract. They were actually quite keen to stay, but were perhaps just influenced by the fact that their parents lvie here in Europe. They are all intelligent people, not given to fast food, dumb advertising watching or any such pernicious trends.....

Eventually the decision is yours.

All the best
Patricia

Dear Campana,

Let me begin by saying that we agree with everything you wrote. As indicated earlier, we have moved quite a few times after arriving in Canada, and know that each move comes with its own cost/stress.

Festina lente...yes. Always. Very good concept. I guess we sounded a little impatient in our first message, but that's not really the case.

Jobs...actually most of the time(s) we moved, we did so without a job offer. Unlike many people, who go where they perceive the jobs are (generally in what's thought to be a boom region), we go somewhere we think we'd like to live, and expect us to be able to make a living where we got. I know it sounds somewhat counter-intuitive, but so far it has worked pretty good.

Teaching English...I wouldn't actually expect this activity to be very financially rewarding, i.e. it's not enough to "know something really well" for being able to teach and to share knowledge. We are not English natives, so that wouldn't put us in a competitive position, so we'll likely not go that venue. And agreed, "Teach ESL" banners are promising every Canadian college grad with tons of accumulated debt and unable to get a job better than retail or McDonalds "an inspiring and life-changing experience abroad". We have met a few who went and taught, but in the end it has not pushed them forward in any way. Some have returned to Canada on their own, and keep dreaming about "life in the other place", while others have found a spouse there and stayed there, not thinking often about Canada.

Media: we are sure that there are ALSO stupid shows, ads, newspapers. But we're watching as much European media online as we can and have time to, and the average is of much better quality (at least that's what we think, anyway).

Bashing the new country: we try to stay away from that. When we move somewhere, we expect us to adjust to the new place, and not the opposite. But on the other hand, we reserve the right to leave if we're not happy. And some constructive criticism is nothing but the right way to evolution.

Living in Canada: indeed, an opportunity for many, no argument here. I think your relative who has been here for >50yrs has experienced the other Canada, with a way lower cost of living, fewer rules, less PC, less BS. Again, maybe we're wrong about that, and perhaps we'll dearly regret the move. And those who come on a contract, that's different too. Like Europeans moving temporarily from one country to another, they are mostly enjoying the trip, but without the troubles one has to go through when time comes to actually start belonging to a place.

Last but not least: what's your opinion about The Expatriator's experiences? He's Canadian, and has described in pretty much our words what made him leave his native land.

Cheers,
Los Mascos

P.S. Still no opinions about the place for sale we have asked about :(

Los Mascos:

It's a bit late over here, but anyway just a quick word about property acquisition. It would be advisable IMO to rent a place at first, maybe for six months (longer!). Keep away from online stuff. Once you are in the country (Spain) and when you have a moment, get a car and drive around (a lot, lol) until you see something you like/want. Try if possible to deal directly with the vendor and you will get a better price. Next step: engage a lawyer. Despite the generalized hysteria about all lawyers in Spain being somehow crooked, this is indeed not the case, at all.

Costs involved in purchasing a property (tax, notary's fees, lawyers fees, etc. ) will come to around 10% of the price of the property. That is in broad outline. A good lawyer will provide you with a breakdown of your costs in advance, in writing.

I agree with you about constructive criticism, and its evolutionary advantages, not to mention how the "criticism" is presented. However, "constructive" is not a feature of most forums, although sincerely I think Spainexapt is quite a good forum.

What makes each one leave their native land is very subjective, I am sure. I am in no position to comment on the Expatriator's motives, or his thoughts. I don't even know him.

When I first came to Spain, as a single girl, I came over to study post-graduate at the University of Granada. I actually did not intend to remain in Spain, but things turned out differently. I had no gripe with my home country, Ireland. Then again, and unusually for the time when I was at secondary school, my parents packed me off to France, on my own, and also to Spain the following year. So, I suppose from early on I became quite pragmatic.

I am a very open-minded person, and I do not beat about the bush. Long ago I learned that it is very unacceptable, and in my opinion, even insulting, to tell people what they want to hear. So you won't get any of that from me.

All the best with your plans.
Patricia

Dear Patricia,

My sentiments exactly - it's horrible to tell somebody what they want to hear, and yet that's exactly what life over here is all about. Tell people something different, and they suddenly become defensive and/or start avoiding you and badmouthing you. That's not to say that life should be a long argument, but if one disagrees with another's opinion, he is she might better be ready to defend her own point of view. But that's not how it's done here, where we all have to smile and agree, without employing any critical thinking, ever. But enough about that.

Thank you for the RE advice. In fact, I didn't think buying online, but rather wanted somebody's informed opinion about a property such as that one, because the price seems incredibly low. And it was on the Remax site, so there's at least some presumption of professionalism.

About forums: I know what you mean, I have been on a few expat forums, and my findings are that the truth is sort of the medium/average of what's being published. But overall information is highly polarized, so an average is required for getting something somewhat resembling the truth of the matter :)

Cheers,
LM

Hey LM,
I'm back. :)

About the property - it's cheap because it's basically tenement housing. Okay, not exactly, but it's not going to offer much in the way of comforts, style, or investment opportunity. Terrassa is on the outskirts (suburbs) and you will probably not find what you are looking for way out there IMO. Stick to Barcelona and expect to pay at least 150k? for a small 1 bedroom in a decent building. Prices continue to decline, gradually, and folks have told me they should start to bottom out by the end of this year (they aren't in the know, but are also quietly hunting for opportunities).

Patricia is a sensible, wise person whose opinion and presence is greatly valued around the forum. From her European perspective it's probably more true than mine for her people. Then again you are coming from an enterprising, entrepreneurial environment where honest ingenuity and innovation are valued, and those attributes are, frankly, hard to find in Spain. If you add determination and patience to the mix, I think you'll do just fine.

Check this property out as an example: http://remax.es/1479532

But Remax has almost no presence in Spain. Check out other sites like idealista, kyero, etc.

Thank you very much, Admin!

OK, that makes perfect sense, I thought ~50K is way too little for something nice - never mind the actual dire economy, Barcelona is one of the world's greatest cities...

Thank you for the sites...I've browsed a bit and have found some more properties which are within the budget...so I guess the best thing to do would be to follow Patricia's advice (and we really like and appreciate her mature responses - thanks again Pat) and come for a longer visit - 6-12 months, and then we'll decide what do buy and what to do.

Again, thank you all for the wealth of info! We keep doing our homework and will follow up with more questions.
LM

Again, you are welcome. There is a wealth of property for sale out there. You may wish to live in the city centre (Barcelona is a very large city), or at some distance from the city.

Of course, if you are able to work from home (and more and more people do work from home) then it is immaterial where you are in the area.

Again, good luck
Patricia

Thanks again, Patricia!

Now, since you know the area, can you point us to any neighborhood in the outskirts which is nice and not too far, let's say pretty well connected by means of roads/public transportation? Perhaps some property links?

I realize RE is very subjective, and very personal, but at this point we have no better source of information. My wife now says she'd want a house and out of the city...and since I'd prefer to work remotely, at least part of the time, the distance won't affect me much.

Thank you,
LM

Hello again:

As I live in the south of Spain (and part of the time in Ireland) I am not all that familiar with Barcelona and its environs. I've visited the city a number of times, quite a while back.

I can see why you might be drawn to a large city; however, it is just a thought, you might prefer a smaller city, somewhere less overwhelming than Barcelona. I know, I am biased, as I do not like large cities for living. Given that you can work from home, I suppose it matters not where in Spain you base yourselves.

Anyhow, you could google "Sant Cugat del Valles" for example (it is very close to Barcelona), and see what you think. I note that the British Council has a language academy there.

I think once you are in Spain, and rent at first, you will probably decide to drive around the country a bit, and maybe go in a different direction altogether.

Patricia

I'd agree with Patricia (again) ? Sant Cugat is probably one of the top places on the outskirts. Others: Vilasar de Mar (or the costa maresme in general), Sitges, Casteldefels, or, closer and actually IN the city (but family-oriented (read: boring)), would be Sant Gervasi.

Do check out the extensive discussion on this topic here: where to live in Barcelona (http://www.spainexpat.com/spain/forum/viewthread/1048/).

Thank you both for your messages and advice - it's very appreciated, and we are looking forward to share a glass of wine one day!

I've looked at the recommended outskirts cities around Barcelona, but couldn't find many listed properties, hence a new question: is there any chance to buy a small detached house with some garden, at a distance covered either by a

Hi guys ! Its been a year from your last post .How is everything ? We're thinking to do the same move . We live in Vancouver and now we want to move to Valencia for the same reasons , plus ... we have a baby girl and we want something different for her. We are Canadian citizens but we also have our Romanian citizenship.
How do you like Spain so far ? Any advice would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks

> Hi guys ! Its been a year from your last post .How is everything ? We're thinking to do the same move . We live in Vancouver and now we want to move to Valencia for the same reasons , plus ... we have a baby girl and we want something different for her. We are Canadian citizens but we also have our Romanian citizenship.
How do you like Spain so far ? Any advice would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks

Unfortunately we didn't move yet, but we are going to make the move this summer. Why did you guys choose Valencia? And in what sense do you think life there would be different for your young one than in Canada? (we agree, but we were curious about other parents' opinions).

Thanks a lot for your reply. We understand that meanwhile you guys became parents? Congrats! First of all, let us tell you that we share all your feelings and thoughts detailed in your first post. Your reasons for leaving are ours too. Btw, we are hoping to make the move this summer too :-)

Why we decided on Valencia? It's a a very beautiful city, not too expensive nor too crowded and very safe. It has many bilingual schools and the only language spoken there is Spanish (compare to Barcelona where most of them speak Catalan, which is completely different from Spanish :-S ). We had in mind Barcelona too, at first, and the language thing was one of the reasons we decided to choose Valencia. Also it is not as expensive as Barcelona ;-) .

We did some research and we were really pleased to find out that the schools in Valencia are very good.We're talking here about primary & secondary levels, not Universities, which are some of the best in Europe anyway. Kids have the option to learn another language starting primary school (usually English), and then another one in secondary school (we would go with German). There are so many outdoors activities for kids that Valencia can offer: the City of Arts and Science, Oceanografic (which is the biggest aquarium in Europe and the 2nd biggest in the world), the Bioparc Zoo and many others. You can find more details about this here http://www.mumabroad.com/costablanca/Activities_for_kids_in_Valencia-12676.
The fact that our little girl will have the opportunity to play outside with the other kids in the neighbourhood means the world to us. We always think of our childhood, how great it was that we could go out and play all day, and feel sorry for the kids nowadays that spend most of their time playing video games, and if you want your kid to socialize, you have to plan ahead a play date. We really like the good old fashion education. We find it much healthier.
Anyway, we're pretty sure that most of this aspects go for Barcelona too, but we feel that Valencia is better for family life. This post here really helped us with our decision, maybe you'll find it useful too. http://beyondmanana.com/keeping-our-children-safe-uk-and-spain/.
When it comes to employment, we are still doing research. Unfortunately we won't be able to go there with jobs, so this is our only concern :-(.

Cheers!

No, we're not parents (yet?).

Regarding relocation, we really give it a 90% chance for this summer. It was an awful winter here, so even with the relatively cozy jobs here we feel it's time for another change.

I've done some more research and have enlarged the area - taking into account Germany and other German-speaking countries - being my mother tongue it's an advantage that I'd like to use more than I did here in Canada. I'm just saying this concerning employment, otherwise I'd still go for Spain, because I consider the culture to be more compatible with ours.

Have you decided on a moving date? When exactly are you going? Have you made all the planning concerning closing account here, or setting them dormant? We are a little confused and undecided on that front...checking, savings, rsp, tfsa, business account, credit cards, etc.

All the best, and let's stay in touch!