I don’t live in Spain but I have bought and restored a property there, so I’m not an expert but an informed amateur. Some observations pertaining to this thread:
- I’ve never seen any evidence of corruption first hand, unless you count “black” or undeclared money for tax avoidance purposes, which is endemic. In all other respects everyone I’ve dealt with has been scrupulously honest.
- Corruption is covered in the Spanish press all the time, and there is always a story about corrupt police or local politicians. Personally I think this indicates that the Spanish still think it is unusual and unacceptable, because otherwise it wouldn’t be news.
- Crime is said to be statistically much lower in Spain than in the UK. I don’t know the truth about this as crime statistics are notoriously more about rates of reporting than the acts themselves, but in my experience I feel less likely to be robbed in Spain than Scotland, with the possible exception of the very biggest cities. It pisses me off that everyone blames immigrants, as crime levels have fallen in Spain over the past ten years (largely down to the 80s heroin epidemic subsiding) while immigration has climbed. Ergo more immigrants mean less crime, not more.
- Spanish bureaucracy is awful and can slow life down to a trickle. This may be a legacy of the vast civil service that was created under Franco for various reasons and may be changing. Slowly. In my experience the local authorities in Britain, and especially the NHS, can be almost as bad.
- The ambulance around our mountainous part of Granada is a helicopter service and everyone, Spanish and foreign, has nothing but praise for this incredibly fast and responsive service. I don’t doubt that there are incidents in this big country of ambulances arriving late and even ambulance drivers demanding bribes, but I don’t believe it’s common.
- Spanish administration and policing is more devolved than anywhere else in Europe. So when you make a comment about the Mossos, for example, it’s not necessarily relevant to the Guardia, the nacionales or the locales. And with local politicians, what’s true about one community, province or municipality isn’t necessarily true of another.
- Most people I’ve met in Spain are more accepting of foreigners and less racist than their equivalents in Britain. Even in small villages around the Alpujarra, people seem to be generally very kind to British ex-pats, Romanian builders and (illegal) African fruit pickers. At least more kind and welcoming than your average Daily Mail reading nutcase in England would be under the same circumstances.
- In my opinion, Spaniards have every right to expect people coming to live in their country to learn Spanish (and/or Catalan etc.), but a duty out of common civility to be patient with them while they’re learning. Generally I think they are very tolerant, and again more so than the equivalent people in Britain, France or the US would be. I think there are lots of Brits on the Costas in particular who have no intention of progressing past the most rudimentary level, perhaps because they feel (erroneously) that they are too old to learn. I don’t think that’s acceptable and in this respect I’m probably less tolerant than the average Spaniard.
I’ll admit that I’m not permanently in Spain and I may ver las cosas de color rosa, but that’s my take on my experiences so far.
Hi, I am Spaniard.
A lot of things you said are right, but things need to be analysed more deeply when you try look at the pros and cons between two countries as Spain and UK.
For example, corruption is a problem in Spain, but we are not talking about CORRUPTION, we refer speacially to real state and properties corruption, their prices and the way you pay when buying a home or flat.
Other things, we are 46million population already, with 5million inmigrants (europeans,african,southamerican, and asians), so it is about 11% of the total population.Crime is lower than UK (I know the knife murder and violent crimes problem from UK) but even when crime have gone down while economy are gone up, about 90% of faults, robbery and crimes are made by non-european inmigrants ( it is a fact, I am statistician and don´t talk with prejuice because am married with a southamerican inmigrant who came to study at the same University than me), so spannish people is not so tolerant as you think about inmigrants (they say they are not racist or xenophobic at the surveys because admiting so it is a bad estigma) and because the particular face of the spannish work scenario (a lot of illegal and ‘obscure’ job contracts), inmigrants and low qualified Spaniards fight for the same bad paid works.If you are british or french is different, but I recommend you to learn spanish if you want to be part of the spanish society and not been named ‘guiri’ (it means you are a tourist who live in a dream thinking Spain is a sun paradise and you buy and dress a fucking Mexican hat (very far away from spanish culture), ask for sangría at the most fucking expensive restaurants full of other tourists and think paella is only rice with tomato (that´s why you were at other fucking bad quality restaurant who try to cheat to tourists and you will end up saying spanish food is disgusting) and the worse of all: the ‘putos guiris’ (fucking idiot tourists) are named those who think Spain is so different than you can do what you want a drinking beers all day and throw the cans at parks and beaches, piss at the streets as the fucking hooligans that visited Barcelona last year…
so, what aer you worried about then?
All moving plans need to be analysed deeply.
Spain are not perfect as UK neither.
Hombre, tranquilo! No soy uno de aquellos guiris barbaros que invaden cada año las playas sin saber nada de castellano ni de la cultura española! I understand you’re pissed off with that kind of tourist, but isn’t the Spanish industry moving upmarket and developing green, cultural, natural, gastronomic and adventure tourism as well as the cheap sand and sangria lot?
- Corruption is covered in the Spanish press all the time, and there is always a story about corrupt police or local politicians. Personally I think this indicates that the Spanish still think it is unusual and unacceptable, because otherwise it wouldn’t be news.
Enchufe is a form of corruption, the black economy in Spain is huge, last stats I`ve seen put Spain behind Chile for Corruption.
The Costa Del Sol and Costa brava would fall apart if it wasn`t for Mafia groups, Corruption and Crime.
- Crime is said to be statistically much lower in Spain than in the UK. I don’t know the truth about this as crime statistics are notoriously more about rates of reporting than the acts themselves, but in my experience I feel less likely to be robbed in Spain than Scotland, with the possible exception of the very biggest cities.
Stats are different dependant on the reason for the survey, I`ve worked the doors in both the UK and Spain, the level of violence is greater in Spain than the UK.
It pisses me off that everyone blames immigrants, as crime levels have fallen in Spain over the past ten years (largely down to the 80s heroin epidemic subsiding) while immigration has climbed. Ergo more immigrants mean less crime, not more.
- Spanish bureaucracy is awful and can slow life down to a trickle. This may be a legacy of the vast civil service that was created under Franco for various reasons and may be changing. Slowly. In my experience the local authorities in Britain, and especially the NHS, can be almost as bad.
You`ve never been to Benalmadena of a weekend then, even Fuengirola.
- The ambulance around our mountainous part of Granada is a helicopter service and everyone, Spanish and foreign, has nothing but praise for this incredibly fast and responsive service. I don’t doubt that there are incidents in this big country of ambulances arriving late and even ambulance drivers demanding bribes, but I don’t believe it’s common.
Fuengirola in the middle of the summer season only has 3 operational Urgencia Ambulances on a weekend, most street incidents including knive attacks usually reguire the Policia to drive the injured to a Emergency Dept.
- In my opinion, Spaniards have every right to expect people coming to live in their country to learn Spanish (and/or Catalan etc.),.
If only they`d tighten that up, most Expats can`t be bothered to learn even basic phrases and to a Spaniard thats not only an insult, it also show`s a lack of education.
Brits are the first to compalin about immigrants, i doubt my local chippy in the UK would learn Polish just to serve customers.
Thank you for your comments, which I have taken on board.
Firstly, can I say I am not from a council estate. I live in a very nice Cul de Sac in a private house in England. I have and still do work with people who do live on council estates and the majority of them are very nice people. I think you are naïve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush. Also, I don’t live in Spain, I was there on holiday. I also have a pretty well paid job, I work very hard and do not believe anybody owes me a living
However, I am on your side up to a point and agree with the old proverb, ‘When in Rome…..’, but unfortunately Spain are part of the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights. The treatment I, along with hundreds of other foreigners, have received went completely against this legislation. Also please bear in mind, I was only at a police station because I was assisting them as a witness.
You probably snigger when I mention above the ‘hundreds of other foreigners’. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I’m afraid I don’t.
I’m nearly 48 and I’ve seen quite a bit in my life. I’m aware of what the British Police Force were like 30 years ago and it wasn’t pretty, I promise you. The Spanish are the same stage now that Britain was 30 years ago. I love the Spanish people and the way of life and I do my best to speak Spanish whenever I can. But unfortunately the Guardia Civil is the only remnants of Franco’s dictatorship and because they police by fear and oppression, combined with their paramilitary status, it will make it very difficult for them to come in line with other European police forces.
I think you are naïve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush.
Well I lived in a council estate in a capitol city in the UK, 99% of the time the people were arsholes.I`m not well educated or well off.So i kinda no these kinda people.
the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights.
Well thats true, but if you read Amnesty Int site, you`ll kinda find out Spain pretty much ignores Human rights.
You probably snigger when I mention above the ‘hundreds of other foreigners’. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I’m afraid I don’t.
Well I kinda know the mindset of Spainards as I`ve been married to one for 20 years and worked in Spain for Spanish businessmen for many years.
What us polite Brits consider abuse or racism, they`d consider normal.
Even in schools you won`t get the bullying card played by parents, I`ve known parents to make there kids fight another child because they were being picked on.
As for immigrants being abused, I`d agree with the Spanish mentality that well its not your country, don`t come if you don`t like it.
One thing for sure with Spaniards, they don`t like being told what to do in Spain by Brits especially when the UK is a crap house of problems."Get your own house in order first” would be the reply you`d get by anybody Spanish.
Frankly whilst I`ve dealt with many Guardia and Policia National most of the Brits I`ve seen getting a beating really deserved it and frankly if the UK Police where allowed to do it wouldn`t be a bad idea.
I wish I had a euro for everytime I`ve seen a brit argue with Policia only to result in getting the baton around the neck and forced to the ground, cuffed and shoved into the car door before entering the vehicle.
If you spent a night in the tourist areas of the Costa`s seeing what they have to put up with, you wouldn`t blame the Policia either.
Unfortunatly this has led to Brits being stereotyped and treated pretty much the same, but Spain isn`t thinking the same way the UK is.
Some may say the UK copper is more proffesional, better educated, better equiped etc etc, yet when it comes to arresting people, Spanish coppers will chase a guy down no matter what, even if it means endangering himself.
I`ve seen a Spanish chulo get into a hostile crowd and literally drag a guy out by the hair, whilst getting verbal abuse and bottles thrown, he never waited for help or backed off and many in the crowd shit thereselves because he acted like a complete lunatic.
In the UK a yellow vested bobby with the funny hat wouldn`t have got involved until his mates arrived, but when you dealing with street trouble you have to show aggresion otherwise you won`t get respect and without respect you`ll get bullied.
Most Spaniards are well aware that Guardia, Chulo`s and National get respect as there top dogs and they will bite if you disrespect them.
Thank you for your comments, which I have taken on board.
Firstly, can I say I am not from a council estate. I live in a very nice Cul de Sac in a private house in England. I have and still do work with people who do live on council estates and the majority of them are very nice people. I think you are naïve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush. Also, I don’t live in Spain, I was there on holiday. I also have a pretty well paid job, I work very hard and do not believe anybody owes me a living
However, I am on your side up to a point and agree with the old proverb, ‘When in Rome…..’, but unfortunately Spain are part of the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights. The treatment I, along with hundreds of other foreigners, have received went completely against this legislation. Also please bear in mind, I was only at a police station because I was assisting them as a witness.
You probably snigger when I mention above the ‘hundreds of other foreigners’. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I’m afraid I don’t.
I’m nearly 48 and I’ve seen quite a bit in my life. I’m aware of what the British Police Force were like 30 years ago and it wasn’t pretty, I promise you. The Spanish are the same stage now that Britain was 30 years ago. I love the Spanish people and the way of life and I do my best to speak Spanish whenever I can. But unfortunately the Guardia Civil is the only remnants of Franco’s dictatorship and because they police by fear and oppression, combined with their paramilitary status, it will make it very difficult for them to come in line with other European police forces.
We can but try to assist them!
I wish you both well.
Regards,
Paul.
dear pauls you are right we should not tar all people with the same brush there are good and bad everywhere but it seems that most brits who go to the costas or say the islands are there for the three holiday requisites sun sand sex and ofcourse cheap booze then we who live here have to pay the cost of clean up my son in law is a polceman you would not believe the things he has been through there are some verry good expats and there are some who think that the costas are a province of surrey , please all try to become part of your comunity and live in peace in gods good land
So when you state you agree wholeheartedly and we shouldn`t tar everybody with the same brush and Paul you agree.
Shouldn`t those sentiments also be used when condeming the Guardia Civil has a bunch of facist`s bent on violence against immigrants and there 30 years behind the UK Police.
Well I live in Spain and have dealt with both Brit binge drinking idiots and the mess they create and I also deal with the Policia and whilst I agree the Spanish Police are aggressive and abusive they only in my experience use those tactics when required.
I`ve been stopped many times by Traffico, even without papers and haven`t recieved any problems.
I`ve heard and seen though many many many Brits give the Police verbal and witnessed the resulting action and read in the Expat news how they were mistreated badly.
But it all comes down to a simple fact, give a Spanish Policemen hassle and you`ll recieve lots more back.
Maybe its because they don`t wear stab vest`s, maybe its the poor wages, but they do a tough job and frankly if a Guardia turned up on a UK estate full of binge drinking hoodies, the hoodies wouldn`t be around for long.
And thats why many Brits move to Spain, the lack of crime and social breakdown.
Maybe a few upset policically correct individuals and the criminals will start shouting the inhuman abuse card, civil liberties breeches, but at least the people whos lives are effected daily by abuse from drug gangs, anti social behaviour and complete lack of respect would welcome a strong no nonesense violent approach.
i to have been stopped by the traffico and as a pensionista i have had only the best treatment even before they see my papers so everybody if you want pc police, human rights which mean your wife or daughters rapists has more rights than them, go back to england i am here for life , i love spain and all its people in my village im treated as a man of worth not as a drain on societry as i woud be in england, so viva espania hast manana.
Its quite normal for a person who gives a policia a bit of verbal to get a smack.
Spanish law allows for this and is accepted.
When any person moves to a foreign country, you have to understand you`ve left your way of life behind and accept rules are different.
Whilst this is the 21st Centuary, Spain and her authorities are free to implement there rights, laws and polices.
There is a simple way to avoid problems.
When an officer asks you questions, you show respect and answer clearly, respectfully and with a level of subdewness.
If your from a UK council estate, don`t give a monkeys for anybody and believe you have all the rights in the world to verbally abuse a Policemen, then I`m afraid in Spain you`ll come unstuck.
If you calmly explain the situation and talk nice, you`ll be fine.
What you write is true and makes perfect sense! BUT, as someone who did live for 8 years –between 1997-2006 in Catalonia, I must also express the opinion that the behavior of the Spanish police, especially the “Mossos d’Esquadra” does kind of surpass the limits, which should be tolerable in a country belonging to the European Union. Her just one story:
1999 I did frequently went into a restaurant to eat and after a while did learn to know the owner and his wife, both Spaniards. Already at that time I frequently did notice some “Mossos d’Esquadra” in the places, and their police car was parked outside. My wife became friend with the owner’s wife and after a while she did ask my wife if I she could borrow 2’000.000 Pesetas from us, because they had trouble to get over the winter period. I declined, so they ask if I could be the “aval” (guaranty) for a bank loan. I also did decline. A few days later the “Mossos d’Esquadra” came to my house and did arrest me for domestic brutalities against my wife and my children… They did arrange a fake “denuncia”. I was put to jail for 24 hours. During this time they did humiliate me as much as they could and I would describe some of the treatments as torture and violation of human rights. They did read my rights in Catalan (which I do not understand) and did refuse to let me talk personally to my lawyer. They did pretend to have been unable to reach him , which was a lie. Soon after my wife did testimony and they did retrieve the “denuncia”, but absolutely nothing did happen. We had to move to another town in order to not be harassed anymore. I did try to make a complaint at the European court, but they did not accept it, because I did not go to highest instance in Spain. At this occasion, I did notice that practically all complaints coming from Spain to the EU court were denied to be processed…But all Turkish are accepted.
I have a few other ones, but this one was the most “over the top”
Maybe you should colate the evidence and approach groups who today are currently involved in investigating the Mosos and spain has a whole.
Since they began the Mosos have been heavy handed to say the least, currently there is investigations by the EU, which you may have seen the images of cctv hidden in rooms used for questioning that showed officers beating people.
To some this is harsh, but when you investigate the people who got beat up, you soon realise that they were known to the Mosos.
The Guardia a few months ago beat a suspect near a river in the Basque country, he was almost drowned and need 3 days in intensive care.
He is the main suspect and frankly guilty of the Madrid Airport bombings.
There always will be cases of abuse, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, there will also be far more guilty people crying wolf as well.
Its a difficult situation, do you use strong tactics or do you rely on Prison to deter crime.
Lookin at the UK at the moment I`d support the later.
Maybe you should colate the evidence and approach groups who today are currently involved in investigating the Mosos and spain has a whole.
Since they began the Mosos have been heavy handed to say the least, currently there is investigations by the EU, which you may have seen the images of cctv hidden in rooms used for questioning that showed officers beating people.
To some this is harsh, but when you investigate the people who got beat up, you soon realise that they were known to the Mosos.
The Guardia a few months ago beat a suspect near a river in the Basque country, he was almost drowned and need 3 days in intensive care.
He is the main suspect and frankly guilty of the Madrid Airport bombings.
There always will be cases of abuse, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, there will also be far more guilty people crying wolf as well.
Its a difficult situation, do you use strong tactics or do you rely on Prison to deter crime.
Lookin at the UK at the moment I`d support the later.
I agree, it is a difficult situation. As long as the police deals with real criminals it is questionable. But when it is pure corruption on side of the police, then there is no question anymore. In my case, I did later happen to know that the owner of the restaurant was a drug dealer and ex-prostitute, which did operate under the protection of the Mossos d’Esquadra. This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.
This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.
It happened in Madrid about a month ago, the cheif of the policia Local and 29 officers were arrested for prostitution running, drugs and demanding money from bar owners.
In Malaga a few weeks ago three officers of the National Serious Crime Squad were arrested for being Mafia Members.
A few months before that Guardia from Malaga airport were arrested for adrug smuggling, they allowed known trafficers to pass Customs.
That happens in Malaga a lot, nearly every year officers in the airport or port are arrested.
I have a Spanish Friend who works in Malaga port, I asked about a job there once, he stated I`d be dead within weeks if I worked there.The people who run the port (Not the company) but the gangs would see me as a threat unless I was connected.He has access in work to firearms and most workers are carrying at least knives for protection.
I don`t think he`s involved, but he`s worked there all his life and is accepted because of that and he just keeps a low profile, but he fears the job, but the work situation isn`t great, and stating you work in the port isn`t a bonus on a CV.
This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.
It happened in Madrid about a month ago, the cheif of the policia Local and 29 officers were arrested for prostitution running, drugs and demanding money from bar owners.
In Malaga a few weeks ago three officers of the National Serious Crime Squad were arrested for being Mafia Members.
A few months before that Guardia from Malaga airport were arrested for adrug smuggling, they allowed known trafficers to pass Customs.
That happens in Malaga a lot, nearly every year officers in the airport or port are arrested.
Why is this like this in Spain. As far as I know this problems are much less in other countries of the European Union? Is Europe style mentality finishing at the Pyrenees mountain’s? Are the Spanish politician aware of this? Are they doing something?
