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Corruption and the Spanish Police
Posted: 24 June 2008 07:45 PM   [ # 16 ]  
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Dear Dave/Santi,

Thank you for your comments, which I have taken on board.

Firstly, can I say I am not from a council estate. I live in a very nice Cul de Sac in a private house in England. I have and still do work with people who do live on council estates and the majority of them are very nice people. I think you are na?ve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush. Also, I don?t live in Spain, I was there on holiday. I also have a pretty well paid job, I work very hard and do not believe anybody owes me a living

However, I am on your side up to a point and agree with the old proverb, ?When in Rome?..?, but unfortunately Spain are part of the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights. The treatment I, along with hundreds of other foreigners, have received went completely against this legislation. Also please bear in mind, I was only at a police station because I was assisting them as a witness.

You probably snigger when I mention above the ?hundreds of other foreigners?. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I?m afraid I don?t.

I?m nearly 48 and I?ve seen quite a bit in my life. I?m aware of what the British Police Force were like 30 years ago and it wasn?t pretty, I promise you. The Spanish are the same stage now that Britain was 30 years ago. I love the Spanish people and the way of life and I do my best to speak Spanish whenever I can. But unfortunately the Guardia Civil is the only remnants of Franco?s dictatorship and because they police by fear and oppression, combined with their paramilitary status, it will make it very difficult for them to come in line with other European police forces.

We can but try to assist them!

I wish you both well.

Regards,

Paul.

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Posted: 24 June 2008 09:05 PM   [ # 17 ]  
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PaulS - 24 June 2008 07:45 PM

I think you are na?ve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush.

Well I lived in a council estate in a capitol city in the UK, 99% of the time the people were arsholes.I`m not well educated or well off.So i kinda no these kinda people.

the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights.

Well thats true, but if you read Amnesty Int site, you`ll kinda find out Spain pretty much ignores Human rights.

You probably snigger when I mention above the ?hundreds of other foreigners?. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I?m afraid I don?t.

Well I kinda know the mindset of Spainards as I`ve been married to one for 20 years and worked in Spain for Spanish businessmen for many years.

What us polite Brits consider abuse or racism, they`d consider normal.

Even in schools you won`t get the bullying card played by parents, I`ve known parents to make there kids fight another child because they were being picked on.

As for immigrants being abused, I`d agree with the Spanish mentality that well its not your country, don`t come if you don`t like it.

One thing for sure with Spaniards, they don`t like being told what to do in Spain by Brits especially when the UK is a crap house of problems.“Get your own house in order first” would be the reply you`d get by anybody Spanish.

Frankly whilst I`ve dealt with many Guardia and Policia National most of the Brits I`ve seen getting a beating really deserved it and frankly if the UK Police where allowed to do it wouldn`t be a bad idea.

I wish I had a euro for everytime I`ve seen a brit argue with Policia only to result in getting the baton around the neck and forced to the ground, cuffed and shoved into the car door before entering the vehicle.

If you spent a night in the tourist areas of the Costa`s seeing what they have to put up with, you wouldn`t blame the Policia either.

Unfortunatly this has led to Brits being stereotyped and treated pretty much the same, but Spain isn`t thinking the same way the UK is.

Some may say the UK copper is more proffesional, better educated, better equiped etc etc, yet when it comes to arresting people, Spanish coppers will chase a guy down no matter what, even if it means endangering himself.

I`ve seen a Spanish chulo get into a hostile crowd and literally drag a guy out by the hair, whilst getting verbal abuse and bottles thrown, he never waited for help or backed off and many in the crowd shit thereselves because he acted like a complete lunatic.

In the UK a yellow vested bobby with the funny hat wouldn`t have got involved until his mates arrived, but when you dealing with street trouble you have to show aggresion otherwise you won`t get respect and without respect you`ll get bullied.

Most Spaniards are well aware that Guardia, Chulo`s and National get respect as there top dogs and they will bite if you disrespect them.

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Posted: 25 June 2008 03:56 AM   [ # 18 ]  
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PaulS - 24 June 2008 07:45 PM

Dear Dave/Santi,

Thank you for your comments, which I have taken on board.

Firstly, can I say I am not from a council estate. I live in a very nice Cul de Sac in a private house in England. I have and still do work with people who do live on council estates and the majority of them are very nice people. I think you are na?ve and irresponsible to tar them all with the same brush. Also, I don?t live in Spain, I was there on holiday. I also have a pretty well paid job, I work very hard and do not believe anybody owes me a living

However, I am on your side up to a point and agree with the old proverb, ?When in Rome?..?, but unfortunately Spain are part of the EU and like all the other countries they have to comply with the European Convention Of Human Rights. The treatment I, along with hundreds of other foreigners, have received went completely against this legislation. Also please bear in mind, I was only at a police station because I was assisting them as a witness.

You probably snigger when I mention above the ?hundreds of other foreigners?. Then can I direct you to the Amnesty International Website, where you can view the 34 page report compiled by them, highlighting human rights abuses, many of which are directed at foreigners. The report, which refers solely to Spain, gives details of many of the cases of torture and prisoner abuse and makes numerous recommendations to the Spanish Government regarding bringing the Guardia Civil in line with other Police Forces of Europe. Many of the cases quoted are clearly racist or homophobic attacks, which you may think is OK, but I?m afraid I don?t.

I?m nearly 48 and I?ve seen quite a bit in my life. I?m aware of what the British Police Force were like 30 years ago and it wasn?t pretty, I promise you. The Spanish are the same stage now that Britain was 30 years ago. I love the Spanish people and the way of life and I do my best to speak Spanish whenever I can. But unfortunately the Guardia Civil is the only remnants of Franco?s dictatorship and because they police by fear and oppression, combined with their paramilitary status, it will make it very difficult for them to come in line with other European police forces.

We can but try to assist them!

I wish you both well.

Regards,

Paul.

dear pauls you are right we should not tar all people with the same brush there are good and bad everywhere but it seems that most brits who go to the costas or say the islands are there for the three holiday requisites sun sand sex and ofcourse cheap booze then we who live here have to pay the cost of clean up my son in law is a polceman you would not believe the things he has been through there are some verry good expats and there are some who think that the costas are a province of surrey , please all try to become part of your comunity and live in peace in gods good land

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Posted: 25 June 2008 08:43 PM   [ # 19 ]  
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I agree wholeheartedly.

Regards,

Paul.

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Posted: 25 June 2008 10:16 PM   [ # 20 ]  
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So when you state you agree wholeheartedly and we shouldn`t tar everybody with the same brush and Paul you agree.

Shouldn`t those sentiments also be used when condeming the Guardia Civil has a bunch of facist`s bent on violence against immigrants and there 30 years behind the UK Police.

Well I live in Spain and have dealt with both Brit binge drinking idiots and the mess they create and I also deal with the Policia and whilst I agree the Spanish Police are aggressive and abusive they only in my experience use those tactics when required.

I`ve been stopped many times by Traffico, even without papers and haven`t recieved any problems.

I`ve heard and seen though many many many Brits give the Police verbal and witnessed the resulting action and read in the Expat news how they were mistreated badly.

But it all comes down to a simple fact, give a Spanish Policemen hassle and you`ll recieve lots more back.

Maybe its because they don`t wear stab vest`s, maybe its the poor wages, but they do a tough job and frankly if a Guardia turned up on a UK estate full of binge drinking hoodies, the hoodies wouldn`t be around for long.

And thats why many Brits move to Spain, the lack of crime and social breakdown.

Maybe a few upset policically correct individuals and the criminals will start shouting the inhuman abuse card, civil liberties breeches, but at least the people whos lives are effected daily by abuse from drug gangs, anti social behaviour and complete lack of respect would welcome a strong no nonesense violent approach.

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Posted: 26 June 2008 01:32 AM   [ # 21 ]  
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i to have been stopped by the traffico and as a pensionista i have had only the best treatment even before they see my papers so everybody if you want pc police, human rights which mean your wife or daughters rapists has more rights than them, go back to england i am here for life , i love spain and all its people in my village im treated as a man of worth not as a drain on societry as i woud be in england, so viva espania hast manana. :coolsmile:

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Posted: 29 June 2008 08:16 AM   [ # 22 ]  
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Santi - 23 June 2008 09:28 PM

The Spanish Police arn`t into civil rights.

Its quite normal for a person who gives a policia a bit of verbal to get a smack.

Spanish law allows for this and is accepted.

When any person moves to a foreign country, you have to understand you`ve left your way of life behind and accept rules are different.

Whilst this is the 21st Centuary, Spain and her authorities are free to implement there rights, laws and polices.

There is a simple way to avoid problems.

When an officer asks you questions, you show respect and answer clearly, respectfully and with a level of subdewness.

If your from a UK council estate, don`t give a monkeys for anybody and believe you have all the rights in the world to verbally abuse a Policemen, then I`m afraid in Spain you`ll come unstuck.

If you calmly explain the situation and talk nice, you`ll be fine.

What you write is true and makes perfect sense! BUT, as someone who did live for 8 years ?between 1997-2006 in Catalonia, I must also express the opinion that the behavior of the Spanish police, especially the ?Mossos d?Esquadra? does kind of surpass the limits, which should be tolerable in a country belonging to the European Union.  Her just one story:

1999 I did frequently went into a restaurant to eat and after a while did learn to know the owner and his wife, both Spaniards.  Already at that time I frequently did notice some “Mossos d’Esquadra” in the places, and their police car was parked outside.  My wife became friend with the owner?s wife and after a while she did ask my wife if I she could borrow 2?000.000 Pesetas from us, because they had trouble to get over the winter period. I declined, so they ask if I could be the “aval” (guaranty) for a bank loan. I also did decline. A few days later the “Mossos d’Esquadra” came to my house and did arrest me for domestic brutalities against my wife and my children? They did arrange a fake ?denuncia?. I was put to jail for 24 hours. During this time they did humiliate me as much as they could and I would describe some of the treatments as torture and violation of human rights. They did read my rights in Catalan (which I do not understand) and did refuse to let me talk personally to my lawyer. They did pretend to have been unable to reach him , which was a lie. Soon after my wife did testimony and they did retrieve the ?denuncia?, but absolutely nothing did happen. We had to move to another town in order to not be harassed anymore. I did try to make a complaint at the European court, but they did not accept it, because I did not go to highest instance in Spain. At this occasion, I did notice that practically all complaints coming from Spain to the EU court were denied to be processed?But all Turkish are accepted. 

I have a few other ones, but this one was the most ?over the top?

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Posted: 29 June 2008 02:29 PM   [ # 23 ]  
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Maybe you should colate the evidence and approach groups who today are currently involved in investigating the Mosos and spain has a whole.

Since they began the Mosos have been heavy handed to say the least, currently there is investigations by the EU, which you may have seen the images of cctv hidden in rooms used for questioning that showed officers beating people.

To some this is harsh, but when you investigate the people who got beat up, you soon realise that they were known to the Mosos.

The Guardia a few months ago beat a suspect near a river in the Basque country, he was almost drowned and need 3 days in intensive care.

He is the main suspect and frankly guilty of the Madrid Airport bombings.

There always will be cases of abuse, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, there will also be far more guilty people crying wolf as well.

Its a difficult situation, do you use strong tactics or do you rely on Prison to deter crime.

Lookin at the UK at the moment I`d support the later.

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Posted: 29 June 2008 02:57 PM   [ # 24 ]  
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Santi - 29 June 2008 02:29 PM

Maybe you should colate the evidence and approach groups who today are currently involved in investigating the Mosos and spain has a whole.

Since they began the Mosos have been heavy handed to say the least, currently there is investigations by the EU, which you may have seen the images of cctv hidden in rooms used for questioning that showed officers beating people.

To some this is harsh, but when you investigate the people who got beat up, you soon realise that they were known to the Mosos.

The Guardia a few months ago beat a suspect near a river in the Basque country, he was almost drowned and need 3 days in intensive care.

He is the main suspect and frankly guilty of the Madrid Airport bombings.

There always will be cases of abuse, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, there will also be far more guilty people crying wolf as well.

Its a difficult situation, do you use strong tactics or do you rely on Prison to deter crime.

Lookin at the UK at the moment I`d support the later.

I agree, it is a difficult situation. As long as the police deals with real criminals it is questionable. But when it is pure corruption on side of the police, then there is no question anymore. In my case, I did later happen to know that the owner of the restaurant was a drug dealer and ex-prostitute, which did operate under the protection of the Mossos d’Esquadra. This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.

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Posted: 29 June 2008 03:19 PM   [ # 25 ]  
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eva33 - 29 June 2008 02:57 PM

This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.

It happened in Madrid about a month ago, the cheif of the policia Local and 29 officers were arrested for prostitution running, drugs and demanding money from bar owners.

In Malaga a few weeks ago three officers of the National Serious Crime Squad were arrested for being Mafia Members.

A few months before that Guardia from Malaga airport were arrested for adrug smuggling, they allowed known trafficers to pass Customs.

That happens in Malaga a lot, nearly every year officers in the airport or port are arrested.

I have a Spanish Friend who works in Malaga port, I asked about a job there once, he stated I`d be dead within weeks if I worked there.The people who run the port (Not the company) but the gangs would see me as a threat unless I was connected.He has access in work to firearms and most workers are carrying at least knives for protection.

I don`t think he`s involved, but he`s worked there all his life and is accepted because of that and he just keeps a low profile, but he fears the job, but the work situation isn`t great, and stating you work in the port isn`t a bonus on a CV.

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Posted: 29 June 2008 04:08 PM   [ # 26 ]  
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Santi - 29 June 2008 03:19 PM
eva33 - 29 June 2008 02:57 PM

This happend in 1999, only about 3 years after the establishment of this police. I was told that, at this time, many of them were recycled criminals.

It happened in Madrid about a month ago, the cheif of the policia Local and 29 officers were arrested for prostitution running, drugs and demanding money from bar owners.

In Malaga a few weeks ago three officers of the National Serious Crime Squad were arrested for being Mafia Members.

A few months before that Guardia from Malaga airport were arrested for adrug smuggling, they allowed known trafficers to pass Customs.

That happens in Malaga a lot, nearly every year officers in the airport or port are arrested.

 

Why is this like this in Spain. As far as I know this problems are much less in other countries of the European Union? Is Europe style mentality finishing at the Pyrenees mountain’s? Are the Spanish politician aware of this? Are they doing something?

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Posted: 29 June 2008 05:20 PM   [ # 27 ]  
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eva33 - 29 June 2008 04:08 PM

 

Why is this like this in Spain. As far as I know this problems are much less in other countries of the European Union? Is Europe style mentality finishing at the Pyrenees mountain’s? Are the Spanish politician aware of this? Are they doing something?

No.

Spain isn`t the worst in Europe, Greece and Italy are far more corrupt.

One survey based on CPI score funded by Transparency International puts Spain at 25, No 1 being least and 148 being worst, the USA came in at 20, the UK at 12, Italy was 41, Greece was 56.

Chile was 22, Uruguay was joint 25 with Spain, Portugal was 28.

Having said that there is a lot of info coming from Spain in the last few years, maybe being Expats were more aware of Spain than others.

But Spain does seem to have a serious problem at local council and regional level.

Only in the last 2 weeks was the mayor of Estepona arrested along with 26 others in the Astapa case, which agreed planning permission to local business men without passing the correct legal channels.

The worse think is that these people along with all the other corrupt councils don`t feel they`ve done anything wrong, in fact in a country which is famously slow at progressing anything that concerns administration, they just accept that receiving money for making the process pass faster isn`t illegal.

Try telling that though to the unsuspecting people who have purchased property with all the relevent legal papers from the council, only to find out in time that there property isn` t legal.

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Posted: 01 July 2008 06:10 PM   [ # 28 ]  
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Santi - 23 June 2008 09:28 PM

The Spanish Police arn`t into civil rights.

Its quite normal for a person who gives a policia a bit of verbal to get a smack.

Spanish law allows for this and is accepted.

When any person moves to a foreign country, you have to understand you`ve left your way of life behind and accept rules are different.

Whilst this is the 21st Centuary, Spain and her authorities are free to implement there rights, laws and polices.

There is a simple way to avoid problems.

When an officer asks you questions, you show respect and answer clearly, respectfully and with a level of subdewness.

If your from a UK council estate, don`t give a monkeys for anybody and believe you have all the rights in the world to verbally abuse a Policemen, then I`m afraid in Spain you`ll come unstuck.

If you calmly explain the situation and talk nice, you`ll be fine.

I have to respond to this.

Firstly calmly explaining the situation doesn’t work with the minority/ majority of police that are the bad apples, they are just looking for trouble and I have seen it in many instances where the body language of certain officers incites the situation to get out of hand. To me it’s as though this is government policy in order to cause an incident which ultimately brings in more revenue from the fines etc.

In our case, my son and I were beaten up for no reason, we weren’t even given an opportunity to speak let alone anything else. I/we have always shown respect to the police force in the past as this is the way my parent brought me up and I in turn brought up my kids in the same manner, but never again, of course I’m not going to outwardly portray my feelings to them and I will never incite trouble with them and I will go through the motions of being a model citizen just for my own health. Doesn’t mean I have to respect them anymore.

We are not from a council estate in the UK either. Fact is I run several businesses in Spain, I am a respected member of the community where I live and believe I am going about my life in an honourable and moral way, I’ve never been a violent person although to look at me I’m big enough to take care of myself in a one to one situation. However, due to the brutality of our beating by the Benidorm National Police if it ever happens again I believe I may be forced to fight back because afterall, I will be accused of it anyway whether I do or not. Doesn’t mean I will it’s just the way I feel.

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Posted: 01 July 2008 06:19 PM   [ # 29 ]  
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MartCross - 24 June 2008 01:29 PM

- I’ve never seen any evidence of corruption first hand, unless you count “black” or undeclared money for tax avoidance purposes, which is endemic. In all other respects everyone I’ve dealt with has been scrupulously honest.

In the 21 years I have lived here I have witnessed the Guardia Civil confiscating cocaine and re-selling it in a local bar, they were well known for this in that particular village in the late 1980s, whether it continues today I don’t know. I’ve also witnessed local police taking bribes from people just to get their paperwork pushed through easier, mainly in the building industry. But contrary to belief not everyone in the building industry stoops so low as to do it.

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Posted: 01 July 2008 06:38 PM   [ # 30 ]  
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Santi - 25 June 2008 10:16 PM

Well I live in Spain and have dealt with both Brit binge drinking idiots and the mess they create and I also deal with the Policia and whilst I agree the Spanish Police are aggressive and abusive they only in my experience use those tactics when required.
Not always the case.

I`ve been stopped many times by Traffico, even without papers and haven`t recieved any problems.
You’ve been very lucky then.

I`ve heard and seen though many many many Brits give the Police verbal and witnessed the resulting action and read in the Expat news how they were mistreated badly.
Yes many of them do get themselves in these situations of their own making, but not in every case. Indeed if I or my son had been one of those types then we’d accept our beating and get on with life, but when you are a law abiding person with morals then we shouldn’t expect neadathol behaviour from the people that are supposed to serve and protect us.

But it all comes down to a simple fact, give a Spanish Policemen hassle and you`ll recieve lots more back.
Also applies if you don’t.

Maybe its because they don`t wear stab vest`s, maybe its the poor wages, but they do a tough job and frankly if a Guardia turned up on a UK estate full of binge drinking hoodies, the hoodies wouldn`t be around for long.
I doubt that, there are a certain amount of people that thrive on creating trouble, the police wouldn’t be able to cure it in my opinion. Why is there so much crime in Spain if they are good at their job?

And thats why many Brits move to Spain, the lack of crime and social breakdown.
Maybe in days gone by this would havce been the case.

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