eva33 - 29 June 2008 01:08 PM

Why is this like this in Spain. As far as I know this problems are much less in other countries of the European Union? Is Europe style mentality finishing at the Pyrenees mountain’s? Are the Spanish politician aware of this? Are they doing something?

No.

Spain isn`t the worst in Europe, Greece and Italy are far more corrupt.

One survey based on CPI score funded by Transparency International puts Spain at 25, No 1 being least and 148 being worst, the USA came in at 20, the UK at 12, Italy was 41, Greece was 56.

Chile was 22, Uruguay was joint 25 with Spain, Portugal was 28.

Having said that there is a lot of info coming from Spain in the last few years, maybe being Expats were more aware of Spain than others.

But Spain does seem to have a serious problem at local council and regional level.

Only in the last 2 weeks was the mayor of Estepona arrested along with 26 others in the Astapa case, which agreed planning permission to local business men without passing the correct legal channels.

The worse think is that these people along with all the other corrupt councils don`t feel they`ve done anything wrong, in fact in a country which is famously slow at progressing anything that concerns administration, they just accept that receiving money for making the process pass faster isn`t illegal.

Try telling that though to the unsuspecting people who have purchased property with all the relevent legal papers from the council, only to find out in time that there property isn` t legal.

Santi - 23 June 2008 06:28 PM

The Spanish Police arn`t into civil rights.

Its quite normal for a person who gives a policia a bit of verbal to get a smack.

Spanish law allows for this and is accepted.

When any person moves to a foreign country, you have to understand you`ve left your way of life behind and accept rules are different.

Whilst this is the 21st Centuary, Spain and her authorities are free to implement there rights, laws and polices.

There is a simple way to avoid problems.

When an officer asks you questions, you show respect and answer clearly, respectfully and with a level of subdewness.

If your from a UK council estate, don`t give a monkeys for anybody and believe you have all the rights in the world to verbally abuse a Policemen, then I`m afraid in Spain you`ll come unstuck.

If you calmly explain the situation and talk nice, you`ll be fine.

I have to respond to this.

Firstly calmly explaining the situation doesn’t work with the minority/ majority of police that are the bad apples, they are just looking for trouble and I have seen it in many instances where the body language of certain officers incites the situation to get out of hand. To me it’s as though this is government policy in order to cause an incident which ultimately brings in more revenue from the fines etc.

In our case, my son and I were beaten up for no reason, we weren’t even given an opportunity to speak let alone anything else. I/we have always shown respect to the police force in the past as this is the way my parent brought me up and I in turn brought up my kids in the same manner, but never again, of course I’m not going to outwardly portray my feelings to them and I will never incite trouble with them and I will go through the motions of being a model citizen just for my own health. Doesn’t mean I have to respect them anymore.

We are not from a council estate in the UK either. Fact is I run several businesses in Spain, I am a respected member of the community where I live and believe I am going about my life in an honourable and moral way, I’ve never been a violent person although to look at me I’m big enough to take care of myself in a one to one situation. However, due to the brutality of our beating by the Benidorm National Police if it ever happens again I believe I may be forced to fight back because afterall, I will be accused of it anyway whether I do or not. Doesn’t mean I will it’s just the way I feel.

MartCross - 24 June 2008 10:29 AM

- I’ve never seen any evidence of corruption first hand, unless you count “black” or undeclared money for tax avoidance purposes, which is endemic. In all other respects everyone I’ve dealt with has been scrupulously honest.

In the 21 years I have lived here I have witnessed the Guardia Civil confiscating cocaine and re-selling it in a local bar, they were well known for this in that particular village in the late 1980s, whether it continues today I don’t know. I’ve also witnessed local police taking bribes from people just to get their paperwork pushed through easier, mainly in the building industry. But contrary to belief not everyone in the building industry stoops so low as to do it.

Santi - 25 June 2008 07:16 PM

Well I live in Spain and have dealt with both Brit binge drinking idiots and the mess they create and I also deal with the Policia and whilst I agree the Spanish Police are aggressive and abusive they only in my experience use those tactics when required.
Not always the case.

I`ve been stopped many times by Traffico, even without papers and haven`t recieved any problems.
You’ve been very lucky then.

I`ve heard and seen though many many many Brits give the Police verbal and witnessed the resulting action and read in the Expat news how they were mistreated badly.
Yes many of them do get themselves in these situations of their own making, but not in every case. Indeed if I or my son had been one of those types then we’d accept our beating and get on with life, but when you are a law abiding person with morals then we shouldn’t expect neadathol behaviour from the people that are supposed to serve and protect us.

But it all comes down to a simple fact, give a Spanish Policemen hassle and you`ll recieve lots more back.
Also applies if you don’t.

Maybe its because they don`t wear stab vest`s, maybe its the poor wages, but they do a tough job and frankly if a Guardia turned up on a UK estate full of binge drinking hoodies, the hoodies wouldn`t be around for long.
I doubt that, there are a certain amount of people that thrive on creating trouble, the police wouldn’t be able to cure it in my opinion. Why is there so much crime in Spain if they are good at their job?

And thats why many Brits move to Spain, the lack of crime and social breakdown.
Maybe in days gone by this would havce been the case.

cbram - 01 July 2008 03:10 PM

I believe I may be forced to fight back because afterall, I will be accused of it anyway whether I do or not. Doesn’t mean I will it’s just the way I feel.

I wouldn`t recommend that.

Six months ago in my town a man was violent in the street, although he had a gun the Policia Local decided to shoot him in the head.

In Velez Malaga 2006, 16 Guardia stood trial for the killing of a drug dealer that was taken in custody for questioning.

In Marbella in 2006 a Beligum resident coming off the beach was asked some questions by a Policia Local, he decided he didn`t want to answer him, a struggle insued which resulted in the Beligum guy being suffocated and pronounced dead in the road.

If you struggle of fight back, trust me you`ll loose and you could even get seriously injured and frankly nobody will give a toss.

I`m sure you and your story didn`t deserve the beating you got and sure if it was unjustified that officer should have been punished, unfortunatly in Spain if your in the position that an officer of the law needs to beat you, that usually idicates to most judges that you were guilty.

They do seem to take the line that if you were innocent you wouldn`t have been anywhere near the incident.

cbram - 01 July 2008 03:38 PM

Not always the case.

Usually, but then again I worked in the bar area`s and most frankly did deserve it.

You’ve been very lucky then.

The Guardia Civil Traffico stop people thousands of times a day, some drunk or drugged up, they don`t seem to get many complaints.

I don`t want to get all argumentative, but I live in Spain and am quiet happy.Maybe I`m lucky or maybe you just feel hard done by.

Also applies if you don’t.

In my experience not that oftern.

I doubt that, there are a certain amount of people that thrive on creating trouble, the police wouldn’t be able to cure it in my opinion. Why is there so much crime in Spain if they are good at their job?

Depends on the crimes, its the 21 st centuary crime is all around us.

Most tourist are safe to walk around late at night, obviously this brings in criminals.

But overall the crime rates in Spain in most areas are quite low.

You don`t see old ladies that have been robbed in their homes and beaten, but you get husbands that will murder the wife instead of accepting a divorce.

Maybe in days gone by this would havce been the case.

It still is in most cases.

In the UK my parents have suffered more crime than my wives family or we have.

I don`t know any of our friends who has suffered crime in Spain, yet only last year my sister had the car window smashed in whilst parked in the street.

But experience does vary person to person, people have been robbed in Spain, I`m not saying the country is perfect.

But I prefer Juan the baton, than Plod the high visibility knob head.

Santi - 01 July 2008 03:56 PM

cbram - 01 July 2008 03:10 PM

I believe I may be forced to fight back because afterall, I will be accused of it anyway whether I do or not. Doesn’t mean I will it’s just the way I feel.

I wouldn`t recommend that.

Six months ago in my town a man was violent in the street, although he had a gun the Policia Local decided to shoot him in the head.

In Velez Malaga 2006, 16 Guardia stood trial for the killing of a drug dealer that was taken in custody for questioning.

In Marbella in 2006 a Beligum resident coming off the beach was asked some questions by a Policia Local, he decided he didn`t want to answer him, a struggle insued which resulted in the Beligum guy being suffocated and pronounced dead in the road.

If you struggle of fight back, trust me you`ll loose and you could even get seriously injured and frankly nobody will give a toss.

I`m sure you and your story didn`t deserve the beating you got and sure if it was unjustified that officer should have been punished, unfortunatly in Spain if your in the position that an officer of the law needs to beat you, that usually idicates to most judges that you were guilty.

They do seem to take the line that if you were innocent you wouldn`t have been anywhere near the incident.

Your quite right regarding fighting back, it’s just that it’s hard to stand there and be beaten up for no reason are not daring to fight back and attempt to protect your own life.

I was informed recently by someone connected to the Benidorm Council that the police are no longer allowed to beat people up, this I’m told has been the case for the last 2 months, have you heard anything along these lines? Paul (who posted earlier, and emailed me) has been beaten up within the last 2 months since this is supposed to not happen anymore. If it’s true then maybe Spain has at long last been taken heed of the Amnesty International reports about torture by the police force in Spain.

I can honestly say the police forces attitude in Benidorm(where I work) has had a significant impact on tourism. I run a couple of businesses in Benidorm, one of which has a lot of tourists in it, an awful lot of these tourist have witnessed similar incidents during their holidays. I appreciate they have a lot of drunks and violent incidents to deal with here but the problem is they seem to treat everyone as a thug, whether you are or not.

Just in case some people reading this are unaware of my original posting last year our “police experience” was a direct result of a racist off duty policeman whom threw his dummy out of his pram because we pulled into the road and joined the long queue of traffic whilst he was picking up his girlfriend at the supermarket. You see the Spanish men don’t like to be behind anyone on the road and to give way to someone isn’t in their genetic makeup. Basically, a very very minor road rage incident caused by him resulted in us being half beaten to death weeks later, when he saw us whilst on duty. Actually he recognised our car and staked it out until our arrival back to it, as this is the only plausable reason for all those police cars arriving within seconds.

I now know that none of them can be trusted, they made up a pile of lies, fake injuries and we paid the price. However, the final result of this is that my house is for sale now, my businesses are for sale now and my investment in Spain will be withdrawn upon the sale of these. I also spend as little as possible to live here now, soas to not give this country the satisfaction of taking my hard earnt money. I know this sounds bitter but it will ultimately be their loss, which also adds to the lost tourism due to the endless bad publicity Spain receives because of incidents such as this.

As you’ve previously seen I have lived in Spain for 21 years, in all that time I have lived just inland from Campello (20kms south of Benidorm). For the first 16 years I never had any problems with life in Spain, never got involved with the police, except the Guardia pulling people over at the side of the road, which is unavoidable here. Even then I never got fines as all my paperwork is always in order.

But in recent years 2002 onwards, in our area the crime rate appears tohave become a big problem. Some locals say this is because Alicante have allowed the berthing of a ferry from North Africa which arrives several times a week. It certainly seems to have become this way since the ferry started to come, maybe it’s just coincidence. The local policeman in my village (whom is a nice normal human being) tells me that the Guardia know that there are containers full of stolen goods leaving Alicante on this ferry each time it leaves but they do nothing (or next to nothing) about it. Therefore, the don’t condone theft if this is true.

Another fact is that in 2002 my house was robbed for the first time in my life, my house has solar power and there was a spate of thefts at the time for solar panels. This happened on 14th February 2002 (an easy day to remember as it’s Valentines day). This was particularly upsetting as they had only recently been installed. However, the tools were all left behind, the Guardia were called and refused to come out, I gathered up all the tools (without touching them) and took them to the police station where I made a statement and gave them the tools with the suggestion that they finger print them. They laughed at me and said I watch too many movies!!!!!!!!! To this day they have never been to my house regarding this crime. Incidentally, I had a special insurance policy for the cover of these panel and the didn’t pay out, but that’s another story.

On valentines day 2003, exactly one year later and 1 month after the new set of panels had been installed yet again they were robbed. However, this had been on my mind all that day because I remembered the day. I went to bed at 1 am that night and just got into bed and heard the panels being interferred with.  I looked out the window and 4 North Africans were clearly seen (bright lit night) in the middle of relieving me of €12,000 of panels. My wife phoned the Guardia whilst I woke my son. Again the guardia refused to come out, even though the robbery was in progress. We had no choice but to confront them ourselves.

Result of this was they all ran off but we recovered the panels they had removed. Today they are fixed in such a manner that there is no way they could be removed. For the record the panels original and subsequent installation had to be done to the requirements of the Valencian Governments in order to be eligible for the grant they pay for thes installations. In other words they were easy prey for anyone that took a fancy to them due to the method of installation. At this point we purchased a German Shepherd as security etc, being of the knowledge that there was obviously no protection from the police!!

In August 2005 someone dared to enter our bedroom window in an attempt to rob the house I assume. The dog, had a hold of this person and bit his hand. He rapidly escaped. The Guardia were again called, yet again refused to come out but took the occasion to lecture us about the dog should be muzzled. I slammed the phone down. No way will my dog be muzzled inside its own home!

2006 some one was spotted outside my bedroom window with what appeared to be a gun, the dog was going mad at this point having heard them. The guardia were called and the word gun was mentioned. There were there in 2 minutes (I live 12 kms from the nearest police station) so they must have actually been in the area at the time. Anyway, upon arrival they spent 5 minutes just asking questions, when at this point the offender had run off and was spotted in the distance (we are in the countryside on the edge of a village) the police shone their torch, nodded in acceptance that they saw him and did........nothing. They left in the opposite direction.

In April 2008 our house was robbed whilst we were at work, the dog was murdered, the house was ransacked and the damage to the property was extensive. Guardia called, refused to come out. So I went to them, made a statement and insisted they did something. Two Guardia were dispatched to follow me home and view the damage. Upon arrival they viewed the damage and shrugged their shoulders and said that I should live in the village as living in the countryside is just asking for trouble. I actually live in the village boundary and have neighbours although the main village is 1 km away. Utter bull, I then stated that the virtually the entire village had been burgled during the previous 3 or 4 years, which it had. This comment went over their head and they left.

The point of this story is that these days the police don’t even appear to want to solve crime, unless it involves a fire arm, this being the only time they voluntarily came out to my house. But what has happened in Spain in the same time frame is that a vast increase of Guardi Civil Traffic Police have appeared and the endless stop and checks of documents have increased 10 fold. This also comes within the time frame of the EU cutting Spain’s freebies.

These days I drive in to Benidorm daily to be greeted by between two to four Guardia Trafico camped out on the roundabout at Villajoyosa on a daily basis, one week there one week elsewhere. Always a baglog of traffic that has been pulled over. OK some of these driver will be drunk, drugged etc but the vast majority of them will be innocent. Thing is the innocent will just need to accept this as an inconvenience.

Run out of characters can’t type anymore!

The final point I was making when I ran out of room, was that I have seen with my own eyes the National Police cruising around the streets of Benidorm and pull over and just start to lay into people for no apparent reason. I don’t know if this is unique to Benidorm but I can honestly say that in the 2 years Ihave worked in Benidorm I have seen and witnesses, even sustained more violence perpetrated by the police than I have ever seen in my entire life. Yes some of these people deserved what they got but many have also been innocent. Most of this is witnessed at 8.30am in the morning on my way to work. God only knows what it is like at 2 or 3 am.

You people made me very worried! I did live in Spain/Catalonia for 8 years. I had my share of trouble with the Catalan population and with the “Mosos d’Esquadra’, but I actually was thinking, that I may just not have been very lucky. I have to add that during my 66 years of life, I did live in 8 different countries, I have no criminal record in any of these countries and except in Spain, I never had any kind of problems with the population or with the police. I am normally considered a respected citizen.
Since 3 years, I do live in the Philippines, about 60 km. from Manila. I am considering leaving the Philippines during this year, and returning with my family to Spain.  The major reasons are (lol!): corruption, security, looking at abject poverty and the climate. On climate side there is no question that Spain is the clear winner. But, after reading all your horror stories and remembering what did happen to me during 1996-2006, I am now not so sure if I is really a good idea to expose my family and myself to eventual police brutality, racism, aggression and crime. Security is bad in the Philippines (due to poverty) and robberies are numerous and can be life threatening. So it is better to live in a guarded compound or be very low profile (nothing to steal style…☺ But I never did hear about tourists or ex-pat’s being beaten up by police.  If you do not interfere with politics, or open your well-garnished wallet in public, you will probably survive…if you insult them or their country they will maybe have you deported. But you can also give them 300-1000 Pesos (4 € -7 € ), this normally does the trick. The same is valid for being stopped in a traffic control. Population is normally kind and far less aggressive as the Spaniards. Of course the Philippines are a third world country, still having a having a legacy from all negative characteristics of the Spaniards (400 year of colonization). Also my wife is Asian. I did experience disgusting racism in Spain before, but I thought this was a specialty of some Catalans with there sic nationalism and displaced feeling of being something special. But now, as a member of two different Spanish ex-pat forums, I realize that this may not be as I thought.

I mean, all this stories you people are writing, I have no reasons to doubt about them, but it’s hard to believe that this things happen in a European country, belonging to the EU! How it is possible that the Spanish government does not act? I mean, they are performing economical suicide. A big part of Spanish revenues comes form tourists and in Spain retired people. Every year, due to this kind of bad reputation, the visitors do come less and less and ex-pat’s leave. Now, that Spain is not that cheap anymore and if there is this kind of aggressive behavior from police and population, there is no really a reason to go to Spain. Spain has a real nice climate, but on the end one has to evaluate the price you pay for it.

This summer, we will make a five weeks trip in order to visit Spain, and maybe find a place to live. But after reading all this horrors I am having second thoughts about our project to live in Spain and bringing my good money in a country as this one.

In the Philippines I can live, with equal money, like a King, driver, helpers, eating out, having a luxury house and still save much money. At the same time I am helping a poor country in which at least some of the population does realize that there is definitely something wrong in their system. From part of the Spaniards, especially the Catalans, I had always the impression that they think they are the crown of the planet, despite the fact, that during their history, they did not achieve very much apart of colonizing, killing and bringing their religion (often with devastating results) to other countries.

cbram - 02 July 2008 08:17 AM

Your quite right regarding fighting back, it’s just that it’s hard to stand there and be beaten up for no reason are not daring to fight back and attempt to protect your own life.

I`ve seen many an argument in the street, the Policia pull up and the guilty are usually man handled to the floor and cuffed before establishing the guilty and innocent, then either a friend/girlfriend tries to get involved with the Police and that then usually results in them being pushed away or hit.

In Spain the police act first, then ask the questions, its not the same in the UK.

I was informed recently by someone connected to the Benidorm Council that the police are no longer allowed to beat people up, this I’m told has been the case for the last 2 months, have you heard anything along these lines? Paul (who posted earlier, and emailed me) has been beaten up within the last 2 months since this is supposed to not happen anymore. If it’s true then maybe Spain has at long last been taken heed of the Amnesty International reports about torture by the police force in Spain.

No idea, but its never really been a written rule that an officer can beat a person, more a guidline on resonable force, just the interpritation of reasonable is different for the Police.

I can honestly say the police forces attitude in Benidorm(where I work) has had a significant impact on tourism. I run a couple of businesses in Benidorm, one of which has a lot of tourists in it, an awful lot of these tourist have witnessed similar incidents during their holidays. I appreciate they have a lot of drunks and violent incidents to deal with here but the problem is they seem to treat everyone as a thug, whether you are or not.

In the South ambulance resources don`t differ to account for the increase in tourism, Benalmadena usually has 3 Ambulances on a Saturday night for a town in Winter has only around 40,000, in summer that increases to around 120,000.

The Ambulances are sent dependant on the situation, I know for fact that if three ambulances are working but four emergencies come in and one of those four is Brit injured by fighting in the street, they`ll get ignored.

The three ambulances will get sent to the Spanish emergencies leaving the Policia to ferry in the injured Brit, no matter what the condition.

I know this sounds bitter but it will ultimately be their loss, which also adds to the lost tourism due to the endless bad publicity Spain receivies because of incidents such as this.

It`s not a loss to Spain, most would be quite happy if the tourism industry fell by 60%.

Obviously some would suffer, but Spain`s tourism on the last GDP percentage graph I read tourism only accounted for 9%.

Some Spanish business observers commented last year that tourism actually cost`s more in resources compare to profit.

I am still reading your stories and opinions with interest.

I’m sorry I’ve got no update on my story. The Guardia Civil are refusing to talk about the Police Station CCTV that will prove my inocence and I’ve had no contact from them about the complaint I’ve made to their head office.

Regards,

Paul.

PaulS - 02 July 2008 05:12 PM

I am still reading your stories and opinions with interest.

I’m sorry I’ve got no update on my story. The Guardia Civil are refusing to talk about the Police Station CCTV that will prove my inocence and I’ve had no contact from them about the complaint I’ve made to their head office.

Regards,

Paul.

I`d give up and put it down to experience.

The punishment give to Guardia officers found guilt of crimes tend to be quiet low.

You’re not in the Guardia yourself, are you? You seem to almost be supportive of there behaviour.

I’m not out to get revenge, that would bring me down to their level. The thing is, I’ve now got a conviction in another country. I’m almost 50 and I’ve never even had a point on my driving licence before, let alone a conviction.

It’s wrong and I will do my best to do something about it. The GC are 30 years behind the UK and most of the rest of Europe as far as policing goes and they need to be made understand that torture, assault and degrading behaviour are unexeptable in the 21st century.

I now have a British solicitor acting for me, so I’m hoping for some progress soon.

Warmest regards,

Paul.

PaulS - 05 July 2008 09:32 AM

You’re not in the Guardia yourself, are you? You seem to almost be supportive of there behaviour.

I support heavy handed tactics in the right situation, I wouldn`t support beating innocent people.

The guardia do have a problem with certain officers, but that doesn`t mean the whole of the Spanish Police are bad, the same rules for guilty civilians apply to the officers.

I’m not out to get revenge, that would bring me down to their level. The thing is, I’ve now got a conviction in another country. I’m almost 50 and I’ve never even had a point on my driving licence before, let alone a conviction.

To recieve a conviction meant you`ve been to court then ?

Are you now saying the courts are wrong as well, I`m sorry but the guilty plead innocent as much as the innocent.

It’s wrong and I will do my best to do something about it. The GC are 30 years behind the UK and most of the rest of Europe as far as policing goes and they need to be made understand that torture, assault and degrading behaviour are unexeptable in the 21st century.

I now have a British solicitor acting for me, so I’m hoping for some progress soon.

Warmest regards,

Paul.

Good luck.