Cost of living in Barcelona

Hi Equerdo. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm afraid what you've read up on so far is right - it's very difficult to earn more than 20,000 per year in Barcelona, which would normally be a healthy sum - apart from the fact that the cost of living is so expensive. Flats cost a fortune (think minimum 900 Euros for around 60m2, unless you go outside the city centre), and the current economic downturn has had barely no effect. Transport is cheap enough, but utiliry bills have gone up almost 20% since the same time last year.

If it's not being too personal, how much has your boss offered you for the new post? I'm guessing that figures have been mentioned here, otherwise they wouldn't have offered you the job, right?! If you give us an idea as to the amount (net) you might be earning, we can all chip in with details as to how much we think you'd need, etc. in comparison to your current life in Poland.

I don't want my reply to seem negative (I'm an Englishman living in Barcelona, so know exactly the situation), but rather want to offer some sound advice, which is what I was missing when I came! Hope we forum jusers can help!

Hi Equerdo

I have to agree With BCN Rentals... ?900 is the Bare minimum of a flat to rent and its more like 42Sqm

I have a few mates that are renting "BedRoom" for around ?450 a month... It is expensive And yeap Utility bills are sky high and people are struggling to break even :(

Again like BCN says... Give some details and maybe we can help....

The other issue is you have a Mortgage in Poland as I read right? 2 times Payments is going to be a struggle

Regards Anthony

Thanks for the information and help. You are not being negative, I need realistic figures. I know how it is when one moves from one country to another, as a child I moved to Sydney, and 20 years later moved back to Poland. So on-site info is important.

----

My boss has not mentioned a figure, more likely they will wait for my expectations. I have asked for a range, just to have a better clue what is on the table. But this may not be provided.

I earn about 16,000 E a year after paying tax (which is a comfortable wage in Gdansk) and my wife also earns 3/4-wage of about 5,000E after tax.

So, I sum it up like this. If we earn 21.000E after tax in Poland (and I pay much less here for my flat and food) I would expect about 32-33,000 to equal the standard of living that I have in Poland. Am I correct? Can we live comfortably on 32,000E (Netto) for a family of 3 somewhere in central in Barcelona. My kid is going to school this year. And we have a car and other nomal home objects, so no need to spend money on this.

The plus is that my boss seems to want me there, so I am better position to negotiate.

So what do you think about figure?

Thanks,

Julian

Yes, I have a mortage, and that is a problem. If I cannot rent it out (not a lot of rental places in Gdansk, so its possible) I will need to increase the pay to about 37.000E, this seems like a lot. But maybe in IT it is a realistic figure. In Poland people in IT earn a lot more then average.

It looks like my company is located in: Esplugues De Llobregat near Barcelona. Doesn't seem to far from center, any ideas about a good location for rental being close to center and not take 2 hours to get to work?

Thanks for your help,

Julian

Well 37k is very comfortable But! Yes there is a ?BUT?...

It all depends were in Barcelona you want to live... Prices for rent have come down in April in some places as much as 20% - 25%

If you can drive you can always look "Outside" of Barcelona were you can live a lot comfortably...

For instance I live In Salou Its 1hr 10 mins to get to my offices in Barcelona.

Remember I am sure your boss knows this too.. Some People in Catalonia have had to take a Pay Cut in there salary to keep working. To Save jobs.

So ?37k is very good?

Regards Mac

> Well 37k is very comfortable But! Yes there is a ?BUT?...

It all depends were in Barcelona you want to live... Prices for rent have come down in April in some places as much as 20% - 25%

If you can drive you can always look "Outside" of Barcelona were you can live a lot comfortably...

For instance I live In Salou Its 1hr 10 mins to get to my offices in Barcelona.

Remember I am sure your boss knows this too.. Some People in Catalonia have had to take a Pay Cut in there salary to keep working. To Save jobs.

So ?37k is very good?

Regards Mac


Well, as they say, if you don't ask.....the good thing thing I do not NEED to move, and my boss knows this. On the other hand Barcelona is not Gdansk, and I would like a change, Barcelona sounds great:) . I dont need to live in the complete center but both my wife and myself like living close to where we can go out on the weekend, both during the day and night. So somewhere like Gracia would be prefarable or somewhere close to water. But as you say, i understand the costs are higher. What is the tax on a salary of around 37K... Please remember that my wife will probably not work for a while (until she learns the language), so all of us will be living off one wage. Thus my wage needs to be higher. You say 37K is very good, what is comfortable (less?) for a family of 3, without excess.

Well with the tax I leave that to someone else to answer because i am not sure...
Living near Barcelona Central your going to pay a Very High Price...

good Luck...

> Well with the tax I leave that to someone else to answer because i am not sure...
Living near Barcelona Central your going to pay a Very High Price...

good Luck...



Thanks for your help, I might know more this week. It might all end in nothing.


If anybody can also share their view on my wage-negotiations-level :) , that would be helpful.

Barcelona Central old area , where places have been done up it will cost 1200 -1500 , this price havnt drop yet as most are rented
as holiday lets aswell , not easy two fine good place in Barcelona there old and run down . jurdy

Great replies so far, sorry for not getting back sooner. 3000 Euros a month is a pretty handsome wage over here, and there are very few people who earn as much, so if you do get offered that amount of money, then jump at it (assuming you won't need to do a 90 hour week!!). Again, living outside of BCN itself will save you some money, often a considerable amount, and you might even prefer that. Take for example nearby Casteldefels, which is a 20 minute train ride from Barcelona, and has 2 great beaches. I rented an paartment there when I first arrived here (9 years ago) with a space to park my car, a communal swimming pool and RIGHT in front of the sea (like cross the street, and you're on the beach) - although my apartment didn't have the views, it was at the back (but i didn't care). I paid 600 Euros p/m. Nowadays in central BCN, it's very difficult to find any rental for lower than 1100 Euros, with no parking, often no lift, and although you are closer to everything, 20 minutes is not far to travel to say go out at night, and I think your wife and girl might enjoy living outside Barcelona more - especially if your wife isn't going to work.

Anyway, let us know what the boss says, and hope we've been helpful!

> Great replies so far, sorry for not getting back sooner. 3000 Euros a month is a pretty handsome wage over here, and there are very few people who earn as much, so if you do get offered that amount of money, then jump at it (assuming you won't need to do a 90 hour week!!). Again, living outside of BCN itself will save you some money, often a considerable amount, and you might even prefer that. Take for example nearby Casteldefels, which is a 20 minute train ride from Barcelona, and has 2 great beaches. I rented an paartment there when I first arrived here (9 years ago) with a space to park my car, a communal swimming pool and RIGHT in front of the sea (like cross the street, and you're on the beach) - although my apartment didn't have the views, it was at the back (but i didn't care). I paid 600 Euros p/m. Nowadays in central BCN, it's very difficult to find any rental for lower than 1100 Euros, with no parking, often no lift, and although you are closer to everything, 20 minutes is not far to travel to say go out at night, and I think your wife and girl might enjoy living outside Barcelona more - especially if your wife isn't going to work.

Anyway, let us know what the boss says, and hope we've been helpful!



Yes, that sort of a location would be good as well...(understatement :) ) Thanks for the location. Its not that I need to live in the center, I just hate to be totaly cut of from life outside of work. For example, if it would take +1 hour to get to the city, in real terms, that sort of distance at night, means you will stay home. I agreee that 20 minutes is not far. Thanks again.

> Great replies so far, sorry for not getting back sooner. 3000 Euros a month is a pretty handsome wage over here, and there are very few people who earn as much, so if you do get offered that amount of money, then jump at it (assuming you won't need to do a 90 hour week!!). Again, living outside of BCN itself will save you some money, often a considerable amount, and you might even prefer that. Take for example nearby Casteldefels, which is a 20 minute train ride from Barcelona, and has 2 great beaches. I rented an paartment there when I first arrived here (9 years ago) with a space to park my car, a communal swimming pool and RIGHT in front of the sea (like cross the street, and you're on the beach) - although my apartment didn't have the views, it was at the back (but i didn't care). I paid 600 Euros p/m. Nowadays in central BCN, it's very difficult to find any rental for lower than 1100 Euros, with no parking, often no lift, and although you are closer to everything, 20 minutes is not far to travel to say go out at night, and I think your wife and girl might enjoy living outside Barcelona more - especially if your wife isn't going to work.

Anyway, let us know what the boss says, and hope we've been helpful!


no parking ... walk very where , no lift, get fit , lol Ja ja ja

biggest problem for most is there no net ..... now adays you need the inter net
jurdy

jejeje Jurdy. I was just picking up on what Equerdo had mentioned as the kind of things he'd be looking for. I have a car but hardly use it, and prefer to walk everywhere, too!!

no internet....gulp.....that would not work....:).

when discussing 3000E a month do we mean 3000 before tax or after, I am not sure what tax bracket that falls into.

25-30% tax on that sum is also something that needs to be considered.

sorry - I always talk about after tax - i.e. what you'll get net to spend. No point calculating on 2bruto" then realising you'll be short. You'd have to check the tax thing maybe on the other part of this forum with any accountants who are in the know, I'm afraid i'm useless at that kind of thing!

> jejeje Jurdy. I was just picking up on what Equerdo had mentioned as the kind of things he'd be looking for. I have a car but hardly use it, and prefer to walk everywhere, too!!


ya but you tube parking in BCN you have fun look at the vids ,rember mate was down , and here rent a car , i end up doing the driving for him ..... he was so put out about driving there Ha ha ha .... the close calls we had , will that what he tought ...

Driving in spain is mad !

> Anyway, let us know what the boss says, and hope we've been helpful!


Well, I had a quick talk with my boss and i got a range of 40K to 60K a year. But this I would assume is before tax.

So I don't realy know how much that would be after tax. The tax ranges are:

Income- Spain?s national tax rate - Provincial tax rate - Total tax rate
?0 - ?17,707 ---- 15.66% ---------- 8.34%------------------- 24%
?17,707 - ?33,007 -- 18.27% ----------- 9.73% ----------------- 28%
?33,007 - ?53,407 ---- 24.14% ------------ 12.86% ------------------37%
?53,407 and above ------27.13% --------- 15.87% -------------------43%


So if we go for 50,000E as mid-range, would I have to pay 37%???? Or upon reaching some inclome level, final months of the year? Anybody know what would be my final monthly wage with this sort of pay, nothing exact an estimate would be nice. I will have to check this with Spanish HR, but for the sake of discussion...

I think this should be at least 3,000E a month after tax?

Thanks

If You read the Tax Part in The Finance Section http://www.spainexpat.com/spain/information/taxes_for_expatriates_in_spain/

You Will See that you might get the 25% Tax Ruling...

So You may bring more in A month.

Mac

oh, my god, I am struggling to decide if I should move to BCN.

My salary would be 29000Euro before tax, I would like to rent a small apartment with one bedroom.
Small is fine. Just need to be convenient for basic shopping.
Also, it need to be safe. I don't know any Spanish and have no idea how hard it would be to live BCN

Can anyone give me some suggestions?

Thanks a lot!



> I just been reading some other forums and I am shocked. People mention a wage of 18,000E before tax, as being good. But that is what I earn here in Poland. And I am not earning a huge wage or even what a SW engineer earns. But my cost of living is much lower here then it would in BCN, for example, to rent a flat here I would pay 400E for a large flat. And food and other essentials are cheaper.

I worked out (a guesstimate :0 ), that to live on a similar level, with my wife not working in BCN (she earns an ok, a little below average in Poland) and paying for my mortgage in Poland I would have to earn around 37,000E per year before tax, is this realistic? It seems like a lot, when reading the forum. But with less I would be worried, with school and other costs for a start.

> oh, my god, I am struggling to decide if I should move to BCN.

My salary would be 29000Euro before tax, I would like to rent a small apartment with one bedroom.
Small is fine. Just need to be convenient for basic shopping.
Also, it need to be safe. I don't know any Spanish and have no idea how hard it would be to live BCN

Can anyone give me some suggestions?

Thanks a lot!





This happens a lot.

I took a job in Spain, the company confirmed the average wage would be 35,000 Euro`s a year.

Great was my reply.

Found out though that in Spain its standard to work out wage average over 14 months, don`t understand why, well i do, but its not fair.

Also within a month, my first wage slip was obvious I wasn`t getting that amount, it was a job based on performance as well as a basic salary.

So off i go and ask colleugues and show them my letter stating the average medium of the workers is 35,000 a year.

It took around 30 minutes for them to stop laughing, the local jefe showed me the average bonus and wage in that office was 18,000 and that the area Jefe didn`t earn 35,000 a year.

The company was a large International company working in 35 countries around the world.

Not good when you moved based on that info.

HR dept basically stated that the 35,000 was a resonable amount based on company performance figures and if i wanted to sue, here is the address of our lawyers, good bye.

So my solution was to work the year with them, steel a lot of clients and set up on my own business with a lot of borrowed equipment ;) from them and basically got fired after they lost a lot of business.

Although 2000 Euros per month at the moment is a fantastic salary (not many have got that) then you need to be sure about deductions, and as Expatriator above says, any bonuses, etc. that might/not be included. Then consider travel arrangements, living costs, public transport vs your own transportation, etc. Depeneding on where you'll need to live, expect to pay around 850 - 1000 Euros for a studio apartment. It's all been said on these boards, too, so have a flick through.
I don't know how comfortable you're living at the moment, and this might be a step down for you with regards earning/spending. Don't worry too much about the not speaking Spanish thing. You will learn a lot quickly. I had no experience of Spanish at all when I first got here, and was sure to be polite at all times, and I don't think I irritated or annoyed people.

Either way good luck. Also, I replied here instead for the PM you left, as it's beneficial for others to read/know as well. Let's keep the thread public.

Dave.

Hi

Just done some figures...

On the Outskirts of Barcelona 2 bedroom Apartment Fully Furnished Range from ?550 to ?3500 per month Decent apartment is around ?650 on wards... this excludes Water gas, elec etc... all in all your looking around ?1100 per month to live etc,...

Central Barca.. Apartments cost around ?850 (1 bed cant swing a cat around space of a flat) Decent Apartment 2 bedroom ?1500 Per month Bills all depends as some apartments landlords want you to pay comunity costs etc... Some rents include Bills...

This is the thing with moving to spain.. The Start up costs etc always the most expensive until you find your feet and settle down...

These figures were just quick I am sure with a little more searching you may find a deal... With estate agents now... there is no 1 month fee (Estate Agent) 1 month deposit 1 month rent

Rules changed too 2 months deposit 1 month rent go figure?

I live in Salou and drove 50 mins in and out of barca everyday... It was cheaper... You get more for your money if you can travel...
Just remember Transport... Is good in Catalonia however for the outskirts its very difficult...

:-S

Just remember that employers sell a good deal to immigrants knowing there likely to stay since you`ve moved countries.

My old Jefe constantly stated that certain country folk arive to Spain hungry, meaning they`ll work hard no matter what the conditions forced on them.

As a guiri you will face challenges not found in your own country, there are a lot of Spanish employers abusing an unregulated system and many crap onto there workers, even Spaniards.

In the year I was with that company they went through 18 people, some sacked for not workin hard, others walked out.

And that was pre crisis.

I live in U.S. right now. I am mentally ready for the step down about the life quality.
The employer said the tax would be around 15 percent and 6.x% for the health issue.
Basically, more than one fifty of my salary would be taken away.

Not sure whether the tax rate would be very different with different salary.
I was excited when I got the offer, but now I am kind of frustrated after I heard so much about the sky-high cost living in BCN.

Really want to know if it would be a correct step in my life to move to BCN

huidu

I think either you or your boss is talking aload of BS...

As 15% tax Does not exisit unless your earning monkey nuts of a salary...

The tax that be deducted from your salary (Spanish) will be around 25/30 % I think it be more 30% as you gone over 25k a year...

You could be awarded the 25% Tax break allowance as your not a Spanish citizen as your considered an outsider but being awarded this means you lose out on pension etc (I think)...

Regards Mac

Mac,

Thank you so much. 30percent of tax is way too much.
Based on what I have learned here, staying in U.S is a better choice.
Thanks again for your information
Have a good evening,

Huidu

What you learn here is reality and not BS..

I just did a Spanish Tax Calculator and indeed you will be paying 30% the option is you can take the 25% Ruling you just cannot apply to government for Paro which is State Benefit.

US Tax Is still the highest to Europe. "As Per Forbes Magazine"

Mac

Ummm .. I live in the US, make a modest salary, and I pay 25 percent federal income tax, 6.2 percent for social security, 1.45 percent for medicaid. Then I pay about another few percent points to the state I live in.

So, not sure what's so much better about that.

And don't forget, we've got sales tax, sin tax, property tax, toll roads, etc. etc.

I can't imagine Spain is that much worse..

Maybe this is a socialist thing to say; but I kind of think countries with higher taxes tend to be the nicer ones to live in...

I think you should learn more about Barcelona. Only you can decide whether it's right for you. "Quality of life" isn't just about how much surplus money you're able to stash away, or how big of an apartment you can afford to buy. At least, not to me. I live in one of the lowest cost of living locations in the U.S., and can tell you that there's a REASON it's so cheap. It's because nobody wants to live here. So, there's a trade off. But for me, I'm willing give up some luxuries I have here in order to live simply in Spain. To me, I feel it would be a step up in terms of quality of life, being somewhere new and experiencing a different and lively culture.

Of course, if it's not feasible it's not feasible! But I think you could make it work if it's something you decided you really wanted to do... sounds like you're not that excited about coming to Barcelona, though, anyway.

A major point lots of Expats miss or choose to ignore is.

What happens if I don`t make it ?

Getting to a new country, being happy and successful is a huge risk, yes you may have holidayed in the place, loved it.

But what have you researched about goin back, do you gain assistance on your return etc etc.

It can be a huge problem when returning back, expensive as well.

It can be hard enough for EU residence moving around the EU, but for a person coming half way around the world, thats huge.

I would advise all potential expats to research not only moving to Spain, but what implications being away from your original country a few years would impact on your return.

Its easy to get a flight back, but moving home, work etc can be a huge surprise if you were not prepared before.

Santi,

That is also a issue I am worrying about.
I don't think I would want to stay in Spain for the rest of my life. Finally, I need to settle down in some place where I can have a successfully career and good friends without any language barrier.
Actually, I am not originally from U.S.
I still want to leave the door open for coming back to U.S.
Tough choice for me

I have another question.

Is the 25% tax ruling only for the first year? If I apply that, Can I get the heal benefits?

Thanks

25% Tax Ruling lasts for 10years... However you wave the right to your spanish pension "APPARENTLY"
However your Health Contri will remain and you will get state Health Care...

In Holland I took the 30% rulling and got screwed! I can not claim anything !

... So check and double check what you lose if you claim the Tax Ruling...

The Tax ruling does run for 10 years and you can move it to job to job...


Mac

Mac,

If I only took the 25% ruling just once or only a few years, that would mean I lose the right to claim Spanish pension permanently?

How about moving to other EU countries after a few years? This 25% tax ruling I take would the pension I would get in other EU countries?

Thanks!

Huidu

The Tax ruling is only applied in the country you in and no it does not affect you when you move..

Like I said... "Apparently" the 25% ruling in Spain does affect your Spanish Pension meaning you do not get one... Do not quote me on it... its what said in every other website but not gospel truth no doubt...

Tax Rulings are different to every country in the world all depends on there rules and regs...

I claimed my tax ruling in Holland and now I am claiming my tax ruling in Spain..

However once you claim the ruling once thats when the clock starts ticking to your expiry of the ruling it does not stop because you stopped working!

You dont work for HCL by any chance?

As For some reason I have the feeling you do...

Who's HCL?!

HCL is an Indian IT Outsourcing company... That went to the wall in The US had some big contracts etc....
Since The President of the US is trying to bring the jobs back to the US there making amendments to the Laws. to make all jobs outsourced to India etc to come back home to have more tax incentives etc

ANYWAY... Alot of HCL US employees (Mostly Indian Citizens) have been offered jobs in Spain or Europe... (Never Works though as there benched most of the time or sent home..) as there is no work in EU..

hope it clears that up.. sorry for the long wind explanation..

MAc

not at all MAc, thanks for the explanation - I just tought I was being a bit thick, and not picking up on something obvious!!

Good insight, cheers.

Dave.

the questions just fit the profile as the people moving from HCL get fed BS... ....
Hence my question to him/her...

:-)

Another thing I thought of since my last post is that it seems the cost of living in Barcelona is about on par with many major American cities like Chicago, Boston, or Maimi. It actually seems less expensive than New York or San Fransisco based on everything I've read.

And, Santi, I agree. I am all about research and planning. I think if you're young it's easy to get up and go, the worst that can happen is that you're back where you started -- with nothing. But if you've got a family and are used to a certain income it can be a tougher decision. For me, I'm pretty young, but I own a house and have a good job. But I don't have kids and, personally, I'm willing to take a chance. I don't think it's much different than moving to a different part of the U.S., there's just more red tape to deal with.

> I don't think it's much different than moving to a different part of the U.S., there's just more red tape to deal with.


Lots of Red Tape.... Lots and Lots Of red tape....

Anyway Yeap I think all in all its what you make it weather win or lose you tried...

I would say lots of people move from Barcelona and travel into barca like I did when working there... Its a case of finding your feet until you settle...

Its always expensive the setup of home job etc....

Mac

>
And, Santi, I agree. I am all about research and planning.


It can be important and easy to miss something you had not realised.

From what i`ve read Brits tend to make the most mistakes, they don`t learn the lingo, still !!!!!!! and they assume that Spain is similar to the UK.

Its only due to the Spanish that there tolerated or rather taken advantage of.


>
I think if you're young it's easy to get up and go, the worst that can happen is that you're back where you started -- with nothing.


The biggest mistake in life one can make is too be born, grow up, live and die in the same place.

Life is about experience, whilst Spain for me was not a great experience, my Spanish OH keeps tellin me she told me so before we moved, my biggest regret would have been not to go.


>
But if you've got a family and are used to a certain income it can be a tougher decision.


For us we learn`t that children can gain great experience, ours spoke the lingo before we left and had been travelling to there grandparents since they were 4 months, so for them to learn Spain in Spain was great.

But it does affect there schooling, my daughter now has learn`t that next year she is in special needs class as her phonetics are really bad, spelling is horrendous, she speaks and writes perfect Spanish, speaks and reads perfect English, but when she writes English she is using Spanish sounds to spell, so the words are bad.

So now she has too cope with the issue of schooling, my main concern being if her education suffers until the end, that would really put a mark on the experience knowing her adult life could be affected, she wants to be a vet so bad.

If we were both English i wouldn`t have moved to Spain, for sure, its way too hard and I`ve met many many many Brits returning to the UK, the longest Expat I`ve met in Spain workin was 8 yrs, there are a few writers, painters and B&B;owners who have been longer, but mostly people return.


>
I don't think it's much different than moving to a different part of the U.S., there's just more red tape to deal with.



My OH compares Spain too Mexico.

Certainly the South of Spain is very closly related.

>
biggest problem for most is there no net ..... now adays you need the inter net
jurdy


you mean there is no wireless provider like in most big cities ... you plug in a little thing into laptop and catch the signal any place for some 30e/month. nothing like that?

WI FI via a dongle is widespread in most towns and cities accross Spain and is free.

jurdy was talking about OUTSIDE the city, not in Barcelona itself. He was responding to someone else's recommendation that the original poster live outside the city because it's much cheaper.

> WI FI via a dongle is widespread in most towns and cities accross Spain and is free.


where exactly? I want cities, streets, location LOL
joke aside there are only a few places in Barcelona where you can find a WFI - outside of Barcelona even less
I guess sitting in front of a pc at home is somehow interfering with the spanish way of live (and I really mean this in a positive way)
"hacking" into a wireless network is almost impossible since most are secured....

BUT..there is the new 3G which should be good enough for accessing websites and do some basic uploading go for telefonica they have the best net

@expatriator - your post make me smile looks like you didnt enjoy your stay that much...

> [quote]WI FI via a dongle is widespread in most towns and cities accross Spain and is free.


where exactly? I want cities, streets, location LOL
joke aside there are only a few places in Barcelona where you can find a WFI - outside of Barcelona even less
[/quote]

Try this index of 94 locations around Spain with free wifi access.

http://www.wi-fihotspotlist.com/browse/intl/2000011/

This has around 100 in Barcelona itself and around a thousand around Spain.

http://www.wi-fihotspotsdirectory.com/index.php?name=hotspots&req=search&query=barcelona&min=0&orderby=titleA&show=10