Christy I am not putting a flamebait so we get into an argument but your comments regarding a video of ABC which clearly shows that Europeans flock to America in numbers is not a lie. Your lack of understanding of the American culture it shows Generalizing everything like America is the Monster of the world. Let me Explain to you facts and figures. America is the biggest economy in the world, and the world only superpower its GDP per capita and nominal taking into account the exchange rate of the Euro is almost twice of Europe as a whole and much larger than Germany, France, And the UK Our Financial markets are the largest and most productive in the world by dollar value. Ratio between poor and rich is shorter than in Socialize Europe like France and Germany. Unemployment is lower than Germany, France, UK. America is truly a free country that gives its citizens the right to achieved financial goals without Heavy Subsidies like European counterparts. And i am not saying this because it makes America better but allot of European like you take pride n saying negative things about America in justify the failures of your nation.
I was wondering if there is a difference with the spanish perception of foreigners between the holiday zones ? Costas ? and other parts of Spain. As a brit these days I spend my time in what we pretentiously call ?real spain?. I have had absolutely zero problems with personal contact with the spanish, rural or citi-ites, who seem a friendly and tactful lot to me. Strangely I had thought that having a flat in a place where foreigners are rare and which I only visit every now and again would raise issues. In reality far from it.
However I have seen issues in holiday resorts where in particular foreigner students take jobs from the locals.
An example: I went into a bar in Tenerife and asked for a beer in spanish. They asked if I would speak English or German as nobody spoke Spanish. When I spoke to locals they told me the bar didn’t want Spaniards. This sort of thing can I think fuel ill feeling.
I appreciate that the subject of this thread originally related to the position of Americans and in particular VirginiaV. I must say I am surprised by what she suffers; I have never heard my american contacts in Madrid complain. Having said that they live in Torrejon which was a US base so perhaps the spanish there still fondly remember the jobs the base created.
Responding to flyeogh’s post, I think it’s a very interesting topic the difference between how Brits view their experience in Spain vs. Americans. It seems to me (I haven’t spent a lot of time in areas of British immigration so I’m just expressing a outsider’s view) that Brits who come to Spain tend to go where other Brits already are. When I visited Benidorm there were whole barrios with English-only bars, shops, etc. You go inside to find a British bartender, British clients, etc. It’s really like being in England with a different climate 😊 I don’t know any other Americans (or native-English speakers for that matter) where I live, so I dont have that kind of camaraderie support. But back to the Brits, if they’re having a less problematic experience it may be that they’re just not having all that much contact with “real Spain”. OR, if they are, they have different expectations about how that contact should go. Flyeogh’s post described Spaniards as “tactful” which I’ll say that on the whole they are. But, I wouldn’t exactly say that they have open arms welcoming outsiders. In the States we’re used to a high level of friendliness towards strangers that you just don’t often find in Europe. Going into a restaurant for example, how many times have you been greeted in Spain with a warm smile saying “Hello, welcome to XYZ… what can I do for you today? ...Ok, thank you for coming. Have a great day!”
Perhaps treatment towards strangers is similar between England and Spain (I don’t know, I’ve only ever spent a week traveling through the UK which btw I found to be a beautiful country) and therefore they don’t feel that they’re getting the cold treatment as much. And then there’s the political factor which is wholly absent for Brits. British and US culture is not exactly the same (I’m sure any Brit will agree with that!) so comparing our experiences is really only based on the language barrier and non-Spanish looking physical appearance.
So…for me trying to integrate into Spanish society, use the language like a native, feel like part of the family with my spouse’s relatives, feel accepted by my Spanish workmates and just generally trying to be treated like a fellow Spaniard has been met with a different set of challenges than I expected. I’m not sure that British immigrants are trying to integrate into Spanish society in that way.
Ratio between poor and rich is shorter than in Socialize Europe like France and Germany. Unemployment is lower than Germany, France, UK. America is truly a free country that gives its citizens the right to achieved financial goals without Heavy Subsidies like European counterparts. And i am not saying this because it makes America better but allot of European like you take pride n saying negative things about America in justify the failures of your nation.
Woah, what “failures” of their nations are you talking about?
Also note that the gap between the rich and poor is much greater in the US than in those European socialized countries… do some reading before you say that. The US has the highest poverty rate of any developed nation. It also has the highest wealth rate. This is a fundamental problem. Also note that freedom of mobility between classes has become less and less possible, particularly under the Bush regime (although it’s still better than in most European countries, I think there’s a difference in level of necessity to move between classes between Europe and the US however; since most aren’t impoverished and claim a better lifestyle there’s less desire/need to move up). Also see the UN’s study on this: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html which shows the US isn’t even in the top 30 countries for addressing the gap between rich and poor.
Note that it is American farm subsidies that continues to ensure that Latin America produces cash crops for export instead of food. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/08/business/trade.php Hopefully a free trade agreement with Latin America comes within the next few years.
Lastly, but most importantly, anyone who looks into quality of life standards will see European, Canadian and Australian cities completely dominate the charts with only Portland, San Francisco and Honolulu coming close to offering a quality of life to rival the top International cities. I’d link to the original Mercer report that discusses this but their site is down. Instead, check out: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY;=/www/story/04-10-2006/0004336870&EDATE;
Ouch.
Yankeegirl I think that is very interesting. I think we first need to distinguish between brits and Americans or any other nationality that go to spain as individuals to be part of a spanish family (Virginia, yourself and I) and the retirement couples (especially the enclave dwellers) and the buy a bar get rich in the sun brigade. I know of brits living in spain who live with fellow english, refuse to learn the language, and read the SUN a day after its publication - everyone to their own but no thanks)
In my case my partner is Pilar and she speaks little English. Her spanish family have about 100 words of english between them and of those my 4 year old niece owns 50 of them as from the age of three she gets English lessons. My spanish is not bad but it is not fluent. Yes I guess that makes me a bit weird to have a partner I can bearlytalk to (envious huh guys ). Seriously I believe our relationship is stronger for it - sure works for us, never been so happy.
My relationship with the family is excellent. They are very supportive and include me in everything. We have conversations like they thought Zapatero would deliver but now they are not sure if it is better or worse but nothing contentious like Iraq. If such subjects come up they are always laughed off with some jokes.
As I said before my neighbours in Asturias are just tremendous. I talk with them about the seagulls in the village and how the town hall’s idea of falcons might work and avoid cleaning s**t off the cars everyday, football (I’m a bloke), prices of everything, contamination, local issues, etc .. but never politics directly.
I have however noted many times that Spaniards, both men and woman, say that spanish men are very macho in their outlook. Do you think this is a factor for yourself? Does being an American woman make it harder than if you were an american man?
Finally I think you said you lived in the Basque country. Do you note any difference in attitude there compared with other parts of Spain. I have heard Spanish friends speak both positively and negatively about the Basques but they emphasise the differences.
Expatriator let me show the light? Facts and figures Official not fictional books and editorial!!!!!!!
United States
GDP per capital ( This is nominal after exchange rates) $ 44,000
GDP Growth 3.2%
Unemployment 4.8%
Population below the poverty line 12%
This is taking into account the U.S has around 20 million illegal imigrants and this number puts the strain into our numbers
Canada
GDP per Capita $ 35,600
GDP Growth 2.7%
Unemployment 6.4%
Population below the poverty line 15.9% ( Yeap canada is less poor than U.S)
United Kingdom
GDP per capita $ 31,800
GDP growth $ 2.8%
Unemployment 2.9% ( The only country that has lower unemployment but yet they dont have 20 million illegal aliens)
Population living under poverty line 17%
Germany
GDP per Capita $ 31,900
GDP growth $ 2.7%
Unemployment 7.1%
Population under poverty line 13.9%
European Union
GDP per Capita $ 29,900
GDP growth 3.1%
Unemployment 8.5%
People living under poverty line 25.7%
Now if you want to exclude the tax heaven of Luxembourg, Denmark, UAE with populations of an american cities then please compared them to California GDP Per Capita 61,000 or Connnecticut 62,500 or Palm Beach 71,000
You could check all this figures in the CIA Fact Book, BBC factbook, and is the same information you will find inthe U.N
What is sad is that 400 million people 25 countries of the EU have those numbers ( Excluding Canada) And you could see that i excluded France and Spain there per capita and Unemployment are comparable to Puerto rico the Poorest U.S territory!!!!!!!!
rokipatel you seem to be presenting a very money oriented view of the world and what you might expect from it.
From what you have offered in the threads I believe you may have a culturally rich background. You also I assume have moved from your origins and experienced the excitment and challenge of integrating into a different society. I would be interested to know what other aspects of life are important to you when assessing your quality of life?
I think one miss conception held by many Europeans is that Americans do judge success in life based on material possesion. I personally know two americans, they are my cousins, who do not do that. One grows orchids and the other restores paintings. Neither do it for the money but the love of what they do.
No my freind i do not measure success only by dollar figures$$$$$ but Europeans are quick to always point out the negatives of America and i find this very unsettling. When Europeans come to the U.S Americans do not attacked them with Political comments and treat them like outsiders like some Europeans do. I know it is human nature to be sometimes envious of other people success and i think that is the same syndrome that some European have specially in France, Spain and Germany because this countries themselves use to be political powers in the world and now they feel overshadow by the United States.
I just pointed out to expatriator FACTUAL INFO AND NOT EDITORIALS!!!!!!!
I have been very successful in my life because i always look at the bottom line and i do not let outside contaminated information get to me as FACTUAL.
The Cia worldfactbook is not Political or manufactured info is a summary of U.N, Factbooks and dictionaries world reports from BBC, TFI, and independent studies by world universities is the most respected factual world information in the world due in part to the unlimited resources of the CIA.
I am very and well traveled person you name the country and i will give details only a person that was there could give you. I was born and grew up in the Island Of Puerto rico my parents are Cuban exiles my fathers dad my grandfather is from Spain here in Andalucia. I am not going to lie to you my life was very previlege i went to the best schools and got a good Education. My first language is Spanish and it shows working in Puerto rico and later in Miami you do more business in Spanish that you do in English. And probably have traveled Europe more than 25 times almost all countries and i will spend 2 months out of the year in my grandfathers house in Sevilla so i know about the misconceptions of Americans and Europeans. In my conclusion is that Europeans will tolerate Americans in a Passive aggressive manner in other words the will chews us but not swallow us ( it sounds better in Spanish) i have also traveled the U.S million of times as well as Latin America and the caribbean while i live to Puerto rico i will take long weekends vist the U.S virgin Island as well as British and French west Indies and i saw first hand how underdeveloped this Island are comparing it to U.S islands and it hit me there is allot of crap said that is not true unless you experienced it yourselves. For example if you go to Dominican Republic, Mexico big tourist destination you could ask any local if the prefer American tourist to European tourist and they will tell FOR SURE AMERICAN and i ask why they tell me that European Tourist are to poor and cheap to spend money outside their prepaid tourist package of all included Americans go out the rent cars the buy local crafts and spend money in there local economies. Believed me i have allot of experience and it is unfairly truth the way Americans spend money and the way the get treated when they should adopt the same attitudes of gratitude and warmness that allot of people in latin america, eastern europe, Italy and Greece show when Americans go to their countries.
I would still be interested in your thoughts on measures of quality of life other than money but I understand you are annoyed by a few Europeans who give the US a bad time. These things happen. There are a few americans who give others a bad time I can assure you. Presumably they do it out of spite and not envy?
However there are thousands of Americans happy living in Europe who have great relations with the natives, and Europeans in the US likewise.
Sorry just seen your reply above. I’ll have a read.
I found this forum/post while doing a search on Americans living in Spain.
I am from Houston Texas and have been living in Spain now for about 2 months. My wife was born and raised in Zamora but has lived in the States for almost 8 years teaching English. She wanted to move back for a year or so because she missed everything here. I have been to Spain with her a few times in the past just to visit on holidays and things of that matter. In my short time living here I have loved just about everything and everywhere I have been.
My Spanish is coming along pretty well in my short time here. I am taking some classes starting on the 18th of this month. We live in Tudela. My wife is an English teacher here and I work online from our house.
I must admit I have never been a big fan of our American Government since I started to pay attention to those types of issues when I was a younger man. As an American I can say that I do love the U.S. I just do not love the way the government is ran very much. I am not a fan of anybody or thing that only cares about Capitalism and does not give a damn about anything else. If you really think about it, it ALWAYS boils down to whom can make money off of whatever problem we have.
Now I do know that Spain has it’s own problems just like everybody else and I have taken some time to read about them. I see/hear about immigration problems and things of that nature, As an American and a Texan I can relate to such issues. There are both good and bad sides to that topic for anybody.
Everybody has their own problems. Nobody should feel superior to another based on what they “think” they know. I say if you have not lived it then you don’t know anything. You can read/hear about it all day, but you really don’t know anything until you have walked a mile in another persons shoes.
In reference particularly to Flyeogh, but also to the North Americans on this thread, it occurs to me that Spanish society is much, much more centred on the family than in our English-speaking countries. Even outside real families, Spaniards tend to work in family-like structures based on workplaces, bars, penas, barrios and so on. This makes it quite hard to integrate, even for Spaniards who move from one part of the country to another - language and culture are perhaps less daunting barriers than this simple one of the family. The flat-share culture of students and young professionals is rare even in Madrid and Barcelona (despite Siete Vidas trying to show a Friends style life on TV), because everyone just stays with their Mum until they’re thirty-five or something. I guess marrying-in is the only way to entirely take part in this family culture, but it seems from some posts here that even that isn’t foolproof.
In the very rural part of Spain where we have a second home, we have more in common with the expats - including “internal expats” from Bilbao and Madrid - than the locals. The villagers are very welcoming to us, but they run out of stuff to discuss pretty quickly because we don’t share cousins, nephews and great-great grandpas. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how sociable we’re feeling at the time) they simply won’t talk about careers, house-prices and school league tables like people in the UK! We do speak pretty good Spanish, but once we’ve done the weather and spoken a little about animals and food, there’s nothing much in the way of common ground. I don’t present this as a criticism, by the way, just an observation.
Rokipatel, Martcross, and flyeogh all have their own points, and all are correct. There is room for intelligent discussion in this forum…
Rokipatel, sometimes facts hide the truth—-some countries of western europe have a higher level of poverty, if you’re counting currency, BUT, and here is the difference…Please name ONE social program in the United States that has never been on Bush’s cutting board during the past 6 yrs and 9 months…Most EU countries are much more generous in the amount of assistance they give the working poor than the US. Also the GDP per capita you are quoting is very misleading. I hope you’re not using it to imply that is the average wage in each country? Certainly the average wage in the US is not $44,000, but even if it is, I can see many spaniards who are doing quite well with less, even before factoring in the 42% loss on the dollar when converting to Euros. As far as Americans venturing away from prepaid tour packages in order to explore the local surroundings—no argument there.
Martcross, me thinks you hit the proverbial nail on the head with the hammer. I hadn’t thought of the spanish way of life as you described it, but in retrospect, it does appear to be harnessed around the family. It goes a long way in explaining their behavior and aversion to moving away from their area of birth!
I do not believe in the Social assistance programs that Europeans Country have!!!!! I believe that Free Market Capitalism is the way for a prosperous nation. Take for example Sarkozy in France he gets it and France and their Socialist systems like in Europe France competitive is one of the worst in the world and with the rise of China and India i do not see Europe maybe Germany getting out of the hole. America could be this and that but the system is not perfect but it is the best. That is why wealthy Europeans and Canadians come to the U.S for medical treatment??????????????????????? My friend you have a European mind get a Globalize one.
