Hi to everyone.  I came here from the US for a 2-week vacation in 1983 and am still here…I am perfectly bilingual, bi-cultural, and have worked for American, British, and Spanish companies.

My children attend a British school and I have a huge network of friends of all nationalities.  I am married to a Spaniard.

We live in the mountains outside of Spain.  I am now running a Concierge/Errand/Relocation service company.

I would be happy to assist in any way possible. First suggestion to acclimation: stay totally away from other expats, expat communities, no TV in English.  Force yourself to get out and be friendly, sociable, & chatty around your local neighborhood.  It is a shame to lo live within a microcosm of your country of origin. ?Hay que integrarse!

Hi Kristy,

Can you explain to me how the American and Spanish companies differ in company culture and so on, and which one would suit me if I want to apply for a job after getting my MBA in the US?

Thank you!

Lorena L.

Hi Kirsty,
Whilst I agree with your comments regarding mixing with the local community I am however somewhat bemused that you have sent your children to a British School. My experience of the ‘British international School’ is that the teachers they recruit are either ‘burnt out’ or want to ‘drop out’ from the world of education and instead pursue their own life agenda. I personally would recommend that parents integrate their children into the spanish system and that’s not just about the quality of education for there are many other benefits…..including making friends with parents and children from the local community.

As regards ‘spanish television’...like yourself I do not have or want ‘sky’ or BBC however most of spanish television is awful! It’s either ‘slapstick humour’, repeats of animals tearing each other apart(usually at my mealtime) or some awful american soap/drama. There is more British TV on Spanish television than there is on the BBC! There are however some great documentary/wildlife/history/architecture programmes if especially like me, you take an interest in Spain.

and for Lorena….... learn to take a ‘nap’ between one and four ‘o’ clock! and that there’s a great deal more to life than being successful and acumulating wealth!........By the way, are you ‘Nancy’ out of ‘Doc Cassidy and did you stay married to him?

Best regards.

I do indeed have Sky (the search for Pete Burns’ PA - dear Lord!!).  My recommendation of Spanish TV (and radio) is not based on misguided attempts to select ideal programming for anyone…it’s the best way to get the language going…the constant “ronroneo” in the background! Linguistically - the Dutch are a wonderful example…no shows or movies are dubbed in Holland, thus the general English level is so very high. 

Regarding education - I would avoid the Spanish system at all costs, as it is in a free-fall. Just two days ago new headlines reported that 45% of Spanish youths aged 14-15 (2?/3? de la ESO) have to repeat the entire school year due to failing the entire course.  I have friends who are educators in both systems, and the situation in Spanish schools could not be more dire. In Primary mainly because 75% of classes are made up of recently arrived immigrants from all over, very few of whom speak any Spanish at all, thus making the teacher’s task all but impossible, thus pulling the level of the Spanish children way down.

A comparison of how Lengua Espa?ola and English are taught at age 14: in the former, the students continue to analyze the direct and indirect object (this goes on ad nauseum for 3 years of Secondary), while in the latter, they are analyzing Shakespeare. This brings us to how cheating is an accepted way of life and always has been in the Spanish educational system (through University), but that is another topic entirely. Safe to say, I once caught a Nun cheating on a test!

If someone is justing moving here on one of those “finding the dream in the sun” larks, I can see how putting their kids in the local school would indeed jump-start their Spanish, and would indeed be cheaper.

To Lorena:

Huge US corporations lose very little of their identity overseas.  As the workforce is made up of Spaniards, however, there is a lot of: arriving late, not actually getting down to work until mid-morning, long lunches. and finally deciding to get productive at the last minute. Thus, a lot of rushed and stressed assignments and long, long, long hours. Big companies such as Price Waterhouse and Ernst & Young expect employees to be giving it their all sometimes up until and past 10 p.m.

Many do have wonderful life/work balance programs: I worked at Pfizer for 16 years and got out at 4:30 p.m. every day except Friday, when we left at 2:45 p.m.  Summer hours at many companies here: you work from 8-3 from mid-June to mid-September.  14 paychecks! Over a month vacation per year. Long maternity leave (4 months or more).. on and on.

I never mentioned the financial cost of education and certainly would not recommend’ cheapness’ as a consideration to be taken into account when discussing childrens education. I speak as a British qualified(1968 vintage) teacher. From personal experience I could say a great deal about the quality of teaching staff recruited to the British International Schools…and it wouldn’t be good. Against this the local schools in my vicinity do not have the problems you describe and the only ‘non indigenous’ pupils are British!
I also mentioned the value of integrating into the local community and there is no better way for the children and the parents to achieve this than through the local school. Compare this to the British International Schools and you will find that children are ‘shipped in’ from miles away. Parents are not part of the community and continue to retain their own language and culture.

I can see the value of Shakepeare but also that of another author born on the same day…..Cervantes….and when in Rome…....

Evidently areas differ, especially the “costas,” which bear no relation whatsoever to the true Spain. In my area, the mountaintops, and in Madrid capital, 99% of the students are either Spanish or half and half. Our social lives are greatly enriched by the many friends both we, the parents, and the children have through the school. I also have friends at Runneymede, King’s College, and the American School, with a predominant Spanish population. King’s College ties for first position in Selectividad results with el Colegio Maravillas, which is an incredible feat for any school, let alone a non-Spanish one.

I don’t know what ages your children are (or if you have any), but consider yourself forewarned if you haven’t yet any in Secundaria.  That is when true difficulties begin (and it is impossible for a non-native Spanish speaker to provide any sort of assistance with the hellish grammar reviews). Also, in Ciencias Sociales, teachers expect rote memorization as opposed to analytical thinking. Also, as of 1? de la ESO, the exams are “desarrollar el tema” when the students have not been properly prepared or taught to do so in Primaria. Many kids accustomed to making As and Bs suddenly fail and thus begins the downward spiral which characterizes the “fracaso escolar,” the current6 hallmark of Spanish education. Only 61% of these children finish Educaci?n Secundaria Obligatoria (around age 16-17)!

“On average, 10% of 15-year-olds in the world?s most developed countries have top-level literacy skills
according to the new OECD study, being able to understand complex texts, evaluate information and build
hypotheses, and draw on specialised knowledge. In Australia, Canada, Finland, New Zealand and the
United Kingdom it is between 15% and 19% (see Table 2.1a). In Spain 4% of students were among the
top performers.

In Spain, 16% of students perform at or below Level 1 As in many other countries, the proportion of boys among this 16% is
worryingly high: In Spain, 20% of boys only perform at or below Level 1 compared with only 12% of girls.”

A quick Google search will support this, with continual headlines regarding the alarming state of Spanish education and the futile attempt of the Ministerio de Educaci?n to sort this out.

Without a doubt, there are indeed people who must base their educational choices on economics. I have seen countless posts and blogs from expats who make the move to Spain and, as they are trying to make a go of their new lives here, the free education is viewed as a plus.

Summing up: don’t be lured into a false sense of security, as from age 11-12 things start to get really sticky for kids in state schools, and by age 13-14 many of them are flailing. The lure of “sun and the Spanish lifestyle” often blind foreigners into rushing over to start a new life, to then find the situation far more difficult than imagined.  The percentage of British who have chucked it all in to start over here to have to return to their countries of origin is rising alarmingly. Also, there is now very stiff competition from other immigrants in the job market: South Americans have the edge due to the language and willingness to work long hours for cheap, while Rumanians and Polish generally have very high levels of English and are often highly educated.

I have many clients in Madrid who have been in Spain for over 7-8 years (on the “Costa”), and have no Spanish language skills whatsoever (speaking, reading, writing…). They then find themselves totally at a loss in the “real” Spain. This is truly a shame, as the rich cultural and social offerings here really make it easy for anyone with gumption to be fairly bilingual within a year.

I don’t know if my reply is worthy of consideration! I live in a part of Spain that you have written off as not the true Spain. It is not far from an insignificant city, Valencia, and even closer to the historical town of Xativa. All of my neighbours are spanish but as Spain is such a huge country they themselves speak of the cultural differences throughout Spain. Most consider the people of Madrid and of Northern Spain to be ‘cold and closed’ whereas here as being ‘open and welcoming’.

‘Statistics in education’....you have to joking! ‘lies, damned lies,and then statistics’...apply this to the private sector in education and then apply it to Spain and you come across activity bordering on the criminal. Remember the private sector is there to make money and will do whatever necessary to achieve this goal. I know through personal experience of private sector schools in Spain, who in your words ‘cheat’ to achieve results. I know of teachers who have been dismissed or have left of their own accord rather than collaborate in this activity and thus compromise their professional integrity.

The choice of education for our children is probably one of the most difficult to make. I don’t think there is a simple answer but I know it is a great deal more than ‘result tables’.

I will be ‘offline’ for the next few weeks. Together with my wife we are touring through Northern Spain into Andorra then France and eventually on to the UK. We shall be attending the graduation of our daughter who has now completed her law degree. We will also be meeting up with our son who is in his final year at University, having spent last year at the University of Hong Kong.

Have a lovely trip. I certainly had no intention of whipping anyone into a frenzy! No doubt you do indeed live in the “true” Spain, but I am sure you are also aware of the huge communities of people who make no effort at all to integrate. No need to cast aspersions based on region! A few Madrile?os I know have just moved to Valencia. We also travel a great deal (nearly every weekend, as the whole family compete in alpine skiing), and have only wonderful things to say about all of Spain. I think Spaniards in all areas are warm and welcoming, as a rule.

You are indeed lucky, however, to be fully finished with the conundrum of education here. Things are changing rapidly and certainly have done so a lot since your children were in the thick of it. Not just basing my opinion on the Spanish system on the supposedly skewed data - but on personal experience. Now. Today. My children are 11 and 14, and most of my friends have 2 or 3 school-age children, many in state schools. Several have already had to repeat a year and have just got mid-term reports with 3 or 4 failing grades. And these are intelligent kids (but quickly losing motivation).

I don’t doubt there are indeed serious faults as well in the international system and British schools as well. What a shame your career in education here was so disillusioning. I also know Brits and Americans here whose children’s English is appalling (especially written). Congratulations on their wonderful academic careers of yours.

gonanddunnit - 07 November 2007 08:40 PM

and for Lorena….... learn to take a ‘nap’ between one and four ‘o’ clock! and that there’s a great deal more to life than being successful and acumulating wealth!........By the way, are you ‘Nancy’ out of ‘Doc Cassidy and did you stay married to him?

Best regards.

Hello,

I am looking to move to Spain for that very reason as well. I want to enjoy life more, but I also want to maintain a professional career as well. I just dont wan’t to overpioritize it so much as most tend to do in the United States. I have never seen Doc Cassidy so I looked it up, I guess that is a compliment because Nancy is pretty…

Take Care,

Lorena L.

Kristy - 08 November 2007 02:48 AM

To Lorena:

Huge US corporations lose very little of their identity overseas.  As the workforce is made up of Spaniards, however, there is a lot of: arriving late, not actually getting down to work until mid-morning, long lunches. and finally deciding to get productive at the last minute. Thus, a lot of rushed and stressed assignments and long, long, long hours. Big companies such as Price Waterhouse and Ernst & Young expect employees to be giving it their all sometimes up until and past 10 p.m.

Many do have wonderful life/work balance programs: I worked at Pfizer for 16 years and got out at 4:30 p.m. every day except Friday, when we left at 2:45 p.m.  Summer hours at many companies here: you work from 8-3 from mid-June to mid-September.  14 paychecks! Over a month vacation per year. Long maternity leave (4 months or more).. on and on.

Thank you, kristy, for those insider’s notes. It sheds some light for me. 😊